Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Holocaust on trial

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Holocaust on trial

    Thought I'd share one of my favourite websites- http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/holocaust/

    One of the most interesting sections covers the Irving denial trial- http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...t/later2d.html

    Professor Richard Evans and the other expert witnesses for the defence proved to the judge's complete satisfaction that Irving had mistranslated, misinterpreted and distorted documents. They demonstrated that he had constructed a narrative of the past that cohered with his ideological predispositions rather than the facts. To achieve this, he systematically ignored contrary evidence or rubbished it on the most flimsy grounds.

    For example, he would cite benign recollections about Hitler from fully paid-up Nazis who were members of the Führer's entourage, but reject any survivor testimony about the death camps. He demanded to see a document signed by Hitler ordering the 'Final Solution' as the only convincing proof of Hitler's responsibility, but was content to accuse Winston Churchill of ordering the assassination in 1943 of General Sikorski, leader of the Polish government in exile, without any documentary evidence connecting Churchill to Sikorski's death.

    Mr Justice Gray concluded:

    The double standards which Irving adopts to some of the documents and to some of the witnesses appears to me to be further evidence that Irving is seeking to manipulate the evidence rather than approaching it as a dispassionate, if sometimes mistaken, historian.

    The judge deduced from the pattern of Irving's distortions and his association with neo-Nazis – whose beliefs he held that Irving shared – that, far from writing history, Irving was actually making pro-Nazi propaganda.

    Allowing Irving to spout his poison
    Perhaps this was why Irving appeared such a beaten figure in court the day the verdict was delivered. The press were treated to a printed version of Mr Justice Gray's summary judgement when they entered the court, a courtesy that threatened to turn the subsequent proceedings into an anti-climax. But excitement spread as it became clear how far Mr Justice Gray had gone. The jaws of even hardened hacks dropped as the judge trawled through the lexicon of pejoratives, heaping disgrace and ruin on Irving's head.

    When he left the court at midday, David Irving was a pariah, but by the evening, he was being feverishly courted by the TV studios. The format of these televised exchanges, often involving Deborah Lipstadt, was depressingly similar. In one studio after another, Lipstadt was asked if she regretted having brought the case. Hadn't it given Irving loads of publicity? Hadn't it turned him into a martyr to free speech? Didn't it seem to confirm that there were some subjects about which there was one acceptable line, and if you diverged from it, a powerful ethnic lobby would smash you up?

    In addition to allowing Irving to spout his poison and spin the result of a court case he had lost comprehensively, this kind of questioning scrambled up what had just occurred. The media were creating the demand for Irving, not Lipstadt. He had instigated the case in an attempt to suppress her book and curtail her freedom of speech. As his judgement made clear to anyone who read it, Mr Justice Gray was not arbitrating between legitimate interpretations of the past but ruling on whether a man who claimed to be a historian was, in fact, a falsifier driven by pro-Nazi inclinations.

    Real, honest historians of the Holocaust
    More reflective responses displayed equally woeful confusion. Writing in the London Evening Standard (on the eve of the judgement), D C Watt opined that all historians have biases. The 'worst outcome' of the trial, he said, 'would be to drive the Holocaust denial school back into the depths'. Indeed, he thought, 'truth needs Irving's challenge to keep it alive.'

    By the same logic, laws should not be passed against child pornography for fear of driving it underground. And it is a strange idea that historical truth needs pro-Nazi liars to help research. There are more than enough real, honest historians of the Holocaust arguing together and scrutinising each other's work for that.

    Sticking to the facts
    John Keegan, in the Daily Telegraph the next day, applauded Irving's merits as a military historian and lamented how 'a small but disabling element in his work' overshadowed his achievements. According to Keegan, Irving is fine as long as he 'sticks to the facts'. But Irving's use of 'facts' on subjects apart from Hitler and the 'Final Solution' has been just as problematic over the last three decades.

    In his 1963 book on the bombing of Dresden, Irving was shown to have inflated the numbers of people killed; he was successfully sued for what he wrote about the Arctic convoy PQ17 in a book in 1967; and his theory about Churchill has been attacked for being little better than speculation.

    Nor can Irving's apologetics for Hitler and the Holocaust be reduced to a 'small element' of his work. It is consistent with the pattern that runs through most of his books on World War II, of denigrating Allied generals and political leaders, such as Montgomery and Churchill, while boosting German and Nazi figures.

    If Irving is not an objective historian but the purveyor of propaganda, should his antics still be tolerated? In the Observer, Neal Ascherson argued the classical liberal line that he had the right to express his 'loathsome' views. But the standard argument for freedom of speech has little purchase with regard to Irving. It is proven that he wants freedom to lie and mislead in order to propagate right-wing extremism. In any case, he had no respect for Lipstadt's freedom of opinion.
    When you're dealing with a subject as emotive as the Holocaust, where should the lines be drawn as to what is an ethical treatment of history?
    The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

  • #2
    First of all, this is a terrible comparison:


    The 'worst outcome' of the trial, he said, 'would be to drive the Holocaust denial school back into the depths'. Indeed, he thought, 'truth needs Irving's challenge to keep it alive.'

    By the same logic, laws should not be passed against child pornography for fear of driving it underground.


    Child pornography is outlawed because in order to produce it, one must sexually abuse children, which is itself a crime. At least in the US, it is less about the current opinions on child pornography (that is, the opinion that it's abhorrent) than it is about protecting the material safety of children and prosecuting those who profit from the very real sexual exploitation of children.

    There is no actual, material crime that must be committed in order to deny the Holocaust. One need not commit crimes against Jews, or anyone else, to be a Holocaust denier. It may be true that the propagation of such propaganda increases anti-Semitic incidents, some of which may be crimes, but unlike child pornography there is no actual crime inextricably linked with Holocaust denial (except, of course, the crime of Holocaust denial).


    When you're dealing with a subject as emotive as the Holocaust, where should the lines be drawn as to what is an ethical treatment of history?


    Only a professional's peers can judge whether he is or is not a qualified and dispassionate academic. Just as it is not the job of the courts to decide who "counts" as a scientist, it likewise should not be the job of the courts to decide who "counts" as a historian. It is the job of scientists and historians, respectively, to review and critique the work of others in their field. I can't fathom why a decision like this would be submitted to the courts in the first place, as if it was the job of the justice system to judge academic worthiness.

    There should be no legal lines drawn as to what is an ethical treatment of history. Defining what is and is not ethical and proper scholarship should be the job of the community of scholars. Anything else risks political infringement on the academic domain.
    Lime roots and treachery!
    "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

    Comment


    • #3
      Writing in the London Evening Standard (on the eve of the judgement), D C Watt opined that all historians have biases. The 'worst outcome' of the trial, he said, 'would be to drive the Holocaust denial school back into the depths'. Indeed, he thought, 'truth needs Irving's challenge to keep it alive.'
      I think that's generally a strange position since it would mean historians need liars to drive the search for historic knowledge. I mean it's not that without guys like Irving nobody would research history, esp. NS times. And bias or different POVs is something else than outright distorting stuff......
      Blah

      Comment


      • #4
        The Holocaust deniers already inhabit the lower depths, as far as I'm concerned.


        That they can and do go on denying something for which there are so many objective proofs (and an objective standard of proof) and also deny their own inherent bias and reasons for denial, is indicative to me of the flat earther mentality.

        If someone believes the earth is flat, then no matter what evidence you provide, from scientific observation, rational argument to Nasa photographs, they will always provide some counter-argument, which they alone find credible.

        Irving lied and distorted- his followers and supporters deal in lies and distortions and misrepresentation.

        Irving is not an historian, and certainly not a reputable historian.


        He is a shameless propagandist.
        Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

        ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

        Comment


        • #5
          Irving is not well-respected by the historical community. I think he is an idiot.

          Molly, however, besmirches the 'flat earthers' to put them in the same category. They do satire at a very high level.
          No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
          "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Blaupanzer
            Irving is not well-respected by the historical community.

            That wasn't always the case.
            The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

            Comment


            • #7
              As long as he isn't inciting violence, his views should be regarded as protected free speech. Making laws against them smacks of paternalism - as if the average person is incapable of deciding on their own. The vast majority will see that his views are ridiculous, and those who agree with him will only feel validated by such strenuous efforts to silence him. It fits into their persecution complex.
              ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
              ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cyclotron

                Child pornography is outlawed because in order to produce it, one must sexually abuse children, which is itself a crime. At least in the US, it is less about the current opinions on child pornography (that is, the opinion that it's abhorrent) than it is about protecting the material safety of children and prosecuting those who profit from the very real sexual exploitation of children.
                That's actually not true. People have been convicted of distributing child pornography when the images they traded were wholly computer generated images.
                "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blaupanzer
                  Irving is not well-respected by the historical community. I think he is an idiot.

                  Molly, however, besmirches the 'flat earthers' to put them in the same category. They do satire at a very high level.
                  I would be glad to be able to say the same thing about the Creationists
                  (who use the same denial mechanisms as the flat earthers)
                  Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                  Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X