The collapse of the Roman Empire.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Barnabas
I think the western roman empire always kinda sucked, the east was always much wealthier, rome failed to develop properly Gaul and Hispania.

My why the western empire fell reason is, it always kinda sucked

To be fair, it's not as if it was the Romans who built up their empire in the East from scratch.

They were simply the latest in a line of rulers stretching back to Egypt, the Hebrews, the Minoans, Assyria, Babylon, the Achaemenids, the Hellenistic monarchies, the Lydians, the Phoenicians and so on.

They all had cities and many had extensive trading networks and a great tradition of manufacturing both basic and luxury goods.

In southern Spain and places such as Massilia in Gaul and along the North African coast in Carthage's old holdings and in old Phoenician colonies such as Tingis and Shabta, the trade routes were already well-established before the Romans came.

So when the Romans built Londinium and Eboracum and Lugdunum and left us modern day Trier and Arles and Nimes, they were in many cases building on or near existing Celtic trade routes (or even on Gaulish oppida) but the same volume of trade and numbers of people that existed along the Tigris or Nile, say, were lacking.

[One_more_turn]

Justinian's conquest of Italy was a Pyrrhic victory:
- It destroyed what prosperity was left there. Roman Senate actually ceased to exist during this war.
- It weakened the Eastern Empire significantly in both economic and military terms. Awars and Persians would soon be exploiting this weakness.
- By destroying the Ostrogoths and exhausting itself, Byzantines could no longer prevent Lombards, a very Barbaric bunch back then, from invading Italy.

As concluding remark, I think Justinian was a megalomaniac fool.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


There was actually, namely the Catholic Church*. Heads of state drew from Catholic scholars and their knowledge of canon law, which was based in Roman law. That was a major incentive to convert to Christianity in the first place, since it provided them with access to the legal expertise to administrate their lands.

Your dissertation is flawed because the Greco-Roman heritage did survive, as has been argued countless of times on this forum before. The fall of the Roman Empire would actually be comparable to the fall of a Chinese dynasty, expect that the new order didn't consist of a unified state.

*heck, Christianity itself was part of Roman culture.

Could the priests and bishops sent out to tame the barbarians offer to make them gods? Did they offer them residence in palaces the size of cities with every imaginable luxury at their beck and call? The bureaucrats of China assimilated their conquerors by declaring them gods and treating them as such. Obviously the Roman Catholic Church could not do that. The Roman Catholic Church might have been part of roman culture, but it wasn't really Roman Imperial culture. Archeological studies show that in most areas of the empire surrendered to the german tribes Roman commerce and luxury rapidly deteriorated. The baths, arenas and sophisticated towns crumbled away. These were the sorts of goodies which should have been used to lure the barbarians into preserving the imperial state, yet there doesn't appear to have been any real attempt to do so.

So my thesis stands.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
As concluding remark, I think Justinian was a megalomaniac fool.

Well, not everyone can be a Caesar.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

Could the priests and bishops sent out to tame the barbarians offer to make them gods? Did they offer them residence in palaces the size of cities with every imaginable luxury at their beck and call? The bureaucrats of China assimilated their conquerors by declaring them gods and treating them as such. Obviously the Roman Catholic Church could not do that. The Roman Catholic Church might have been part of roman culture, but it wasn't really Roman Imperial culture. Archeological studies show that in most areas of the empire surrendered to the german tribes Roman commerce and luxury rapidly deteriorated. The baths, arenas and sophisticated towns crumbled away. These were the sorts of goodies which should have been used to lure the barbarians into preserving the imperial state, yet there doesn't appear to have been any real attempt to do so.

So my thesis stands.

Charlemagne was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III. Quite obviously, there was somebody around to teach him how to behave like a Roman emperor. His rule and those of other kings was legitimatised by divinity, due to Christian clerics. Many of whom also acted as administrators and (legal) advisors, which for instance is how we got words such as "fiscal" and "parliament".

Not sure what your thesis is anymore, but if it is that unlike in China the "barbarian" invaders did not assimilate then why shouldn't Charlemagne's title be taken as a sign of assimilation? Didn't they eventually all exchange the pagan beliefs for Christianity? Didn't classical architecture make come-back after come-back? Didn't the preponderance of European states eventually adopt (interpretated) Roman law? Wasn't Latin the lingua france and didn't it spawn a series of languages common today?

You seem to be focusing exclusively on the material, outward aspects of the Roman era. The buildings, the dress, the luxeries. Those disappeared, but the immaterial heritage did not vanish. Sure, there never came an exact copy of 50AD Rome but It's not as if there wasn't any evolution going on in China either.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


Charlemagne was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III. Quite obviously, there was somebody around to teach him how to behave like a Roman emperor. His rule and those of other kings was legitimatised by divinity, due to Christian clerics. Many of whom also acted as administrators and (legal) advisors, which for instance is how we got words such as "fiscal" and "parliament".

Even though Charlemagne took a Latin title, adopted some Roman legal codes, and used cleric advisors some of whom may have been from Italy surely you can see that his state a far cry from being a true successor to the Roman Empire. His reign was 500 years after the empire ha died. The technology that distinguished Rome, the technology to build great buildings, the baths, the highways and so much more was long lost. The social structure and educational system of Rome no longer existed. Furthermore you fail to realise that even though Roman law was practised within the borders of the Germanic states they reserved their own traditional legal codes to govern themselves. This in fact probably contributed a great deal to the establishment of the medieval class system - the upper classes, mostly descended from the Germanic warriors were judged by a completely different legal code than the lower classes composed of the indigenous peoples who were judged by Roman and Gallic laws.

Not sure what your thesis is anymore, but if it is that unlike in China the "barbarian" invaders did not assimilate then why shouldn't Charlemagne's title be taken as a sign of assimilation? Didn't they eventually all exchange the pagan beliefs for Christianity? Didn't classical architecture make come-back after come-back? Didn't the preponderance of European states eventually adopt (interpretated) Roman law? Wasn't Latin the lingua france and didn't it spawn a series of languages common today?

My thesis is that while barbarian invasion eradicated the western Roman empire the simple fact of barbarian invasion isn't suffidient to explain the disappearence of the Roman empire. China was overrun by barbarians but survived intact as it's superior culture rapidly assimilated each successive conquering tribe. The difference is that Rome was overrun by 6 major barbarian nations and for that reason could not by put back together into one imperial state. Additionaly the assimilation of the barbarians was not complete enough to continue the imperial Roman culture. Yes certain aspects of Roman culture survived, but not enough to unite the broken empire.

You seem to be focusing exclusively on the material, outward aspects of the Roman era. The buildings, the dress, the luxeries. Those disappeared, but the immaterial heritage did not vanish. Sure, there never came an exact copy of 50AD Rome but It's not as if there wasn't any evolution going on in China either.

China survived as a state. It's barbarian conqueror eagerly became its sons and daughters, not the other way around. Such was not the case for the Roman empire. While the barbarians may have adopted trappings of Roman culture they retained their identities. Charlemagne's kingdom became France and Germany, not Rome.

Here's how a way to sum up my thesis:
Rome:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King's horses and all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again

China:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King's horses and all the King's men eagerly
Became Humpty Dumpty all over again

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Even though Charlemagne took a Latin title, adopted some Roman legal codes, and used cleric advisors some of whom may have been from Italy surely you can see that his state a far cry from being a true successor to the Roman Empire. His reign was 500 years after the empire ha died. The technology that distinguished Rome, the technology to build great buildings, the baths, the highways and so much more was long lost. The social structure and educational system of Rome no longer existed. Furthermore you fail to realise that even though Roman law was practised within the borders of the Germanic states they reserved their own traditional legal codes to govern themselves. This in fact probably contributed a great deal to the establishment of the medieval class system - the upper classes, mostly descended from the Germanic warriors were judged by a completely different legal code than the lower classes composed of the indigenous peoples who were judged by Roman and Gallic laws.

I'm not trying to pretend Charlemagne's empire was a copy of Rome but I'm saying that post-classical European society eventually came to adopt a great deal of the Greco-Roman heritage. Cue Christian scholars. The titling of Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus is just an example of this. He adopted some Roman legal code, but others adopted some more, and yet others adopted even more. The entire process of codification on the European continent, moving away from customary law, essentially meant Romanisation. The personal law system you speak of had withered away by the 9th century. Moreover, a personal law system also existed for a very long time during the Roman era, with the distinction between ius civile, applying to Roman citizens, and ius gentium, applying to 'barbarians'.
And I wouldn't know what construction techniques the Romans used and in how so far they weren't carried on to medieval Europe. I know technologies such as the watermill and the screw press (used to make wine and eventually applied in the printing press) were transplanted though. A quick google tells me the crane also returned. That's a construction technology, right?

My thesis is that while barbarian invasion eradicated the western Roman empire the simple fact of barbarian invasion isn't suffidient to explain the disappearence of the Roman empire. China was overrun by barbarians but survived intact as it's superior culture rapidly assimilated each successive conquering tribe. The difference is that Rome was overrun by 6 major barbarian nations and for that reason could not by put back together into one imperial state. Additionaly the assimilation of the barbarians was not complete enough to continue the imperial Roman culture. Yes certain aspects of Roman culture survived, but not enough to unite the broken empire.

Still confused about what your point. Is it that the Roman Empire as a state disappeared? That's obvious. Is that the Greco-Roman culture disappeared? That's far less obvious. The thing is that you consider "proper" Rome to being imperial, unified and pagan, while during chunks of its history it wasn't imperial or unified, and while christianity was a substantial aspect of it during the later stages. Weren't the 3 kingdoms of China properly Chinese either then?

China survived as a state. It's barbarian conqueror eagerly became its sons and daughters, not the other way around. Such was not the case for the Roman empire. While the barbarians may have adopted trappings of Roman culture they retained their identities. Charlemagne's kingdom became France and Germany, not Rome.

What is the Roman identity according to you? Didn't Rome adopt Greek philosophy as barbarian Europeans came to? For instance, the Roman concept of "civil rights" (see ius civile) made a come-back in the city-states of Low Countries and the Italian peninsula. Note the parallels with the Greek city-states and birth of Rome as a city-state in this.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


I'm not trying to pretend Charlemagne's empire was a copy of Rome but I'm saying that post-classical European society eventually came to adopt a great deal of the Greco-Roman heritage. Cue Christian scholars. The titling of Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus is just an example of this. He adopted some Roman legal code, but others adopted some more, and yet others adopted even more. The entire process of codification on the European continent, moving away from customary law, essentially meant Romanisation.

I really don't think that feudal law really depended very much on Roman law. Even by the end of the 18th century some parts of Europe were still using the rack amd the Iron Maiden.

The personal law system you speak of had withered away by the 9th century. Moreover, a personal law system also existed for a very long time during the Roman era, with the distinction between ius civile, applying to Roman citizens, and ius gentium, applying to 'barbarians'.

When the germanic tribes occupied areas of the empire they brought their own laws with them to govern themselves and you can bet they weren't 'ius gentium'. In England the seperate law codes for Normans and Saxons persisted until the Magna Carta. It's true that some aspects of barbarian law died out very quickly, such as the codified legal family vendettas when a member of a family was harmed or killed by a member of another family, but other aspects like trial by combat persisted. Then there are aspects of feudal law that bear no resemblance to Roman or Germanic law, like using torture.

And I wouldn't know what construction techniques the Romans used and in how so far they weren't carried on to medieval Europe. I know technologies such as the watermill and the screw press (used to make wine and eventually applied in the printing press) were transplanted though. A quick google tells me the crane also returned. That's a construction technology, right?

Were these tools derivatives of Roman designs or created de novo?

Still confused about what your point. Is it that the Roman Empire as a state disappeared?

Yes.

That's obvious. Is that the Greco-Roman culture disappeared? That's far less obvious.

Jeez, Greco-Roman literature disappeared for nearly 10 centuries. By the time it resurfaced European culture was finally on the verge of surpassing Roman culture. In the 18th century it became fashionable to mimic Roman architecture, fashion and philosophy. It is fortunate that by this time Roiman culture had been so long dead or modern culture might not have eventually evolved.

The thing is that you consider "proper" Rome to being imperial, unified and pagan, while during chunks of its history it wasn't imperial or unified, and while christianity was a substantial aspect of it during the later stages. Weren't the 3 kingdoms of China properly Chinese either then?

Dark Age Europe lost Roman wealth commerce, technology, language, government. Honestly, what more was there to loose?


What is the Roman identity according to you? Didn't Rome adopt Greek philosophy as barbarian Europeans came to? For instance, the Roman concept of "civil rights" (see ius civile) made a come-back in the city-states of Low Countries and the Italian peninsula. Note the parallels with the Greek city-states and birth of Rome as a city-state in this. [/QUOTE] These later events transpired 1000 years after the fall of Rome. Their adoption was not so much a matter of cultural succession as it was adoration from a great distance of time.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I really don't think that feudal law really depended very much on Roman law. Even by the end of the 18th century some parts of Europe were still using the rack amd the Iron Maiden. When the germanic tribes occupied areas of the empire they brought their own laws with them to govern themselves and you can bet they weren't 'ius gentium'. In England the seperate law codes for Normans and Saxons persisted until the Magna Carta. It's true that some aspects of barbarian law died out very quickly, such as the codified legal family vendettas when a member of a family was harmed or killed by a member of another family, but other aspects like trial by combat persisted. Then there are aspects of feudal law that bear no resemblance to Roman or Germanic law, like using torture. Were these tools derivatives of Roman designs or created de novo? That's obvious. Is that the Greco-Roman culture disappeared? That's far less obvious.

Jeez, Greco-Roman literature disappeared for nearly 10 centuries. By the time it resurfaced European culture was finally on the verge of surpassing Roman culture. In the 18th century it became fashionable to mimic Roman architecture, fashion and philosophy. It is fortunate that by this time Roiman culture had been so long dead or modern culture might not have eventually evolved. Dark Age Europe lost Roman wealth commerce, technology, language, government. Honestly, what more was there to loose?


What is the Roman identity according to you? Didn't Rome adopt Greek philosophy as barbarian Europeans came to? For instance, the Roman concept of "civil rights" (see ius civile) made a come-back in the city-states of Low Countries and the Italian peninsula. Note the parallels with the Greek city-states and birth of Rome as a city-state in this. [/QUOTE] These later events transpired 1000 years after the fall of Rome. Their adoption was not so much a matter of cultural succession as it was adoration from a great distance of time.

You know, the title of this thread is "The Collapse of the Roman Empire." I don't understand what you're driving at. Are you arguing that the theme of this thread is erroneus, because Rome lives on in the guise of Western Europe? [/QUOTE]

[Colonâ„¢]

This isn't getting anywhere. Just this:

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Jeez, Greco-Roman literature disappeared for nearly 10 centuries.

I'd recommend you to check about the Etymologiae by Isidore of Sevilla, compiled in the 7th century and containing amongst others Greek philosophy and Roman law. Might also want to read about Scholasticism.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
This isn't getting anywhere. Just this:



I'd recommend you to check about the Etymologiae by Isidore of Sevilla, compiled in the 7th century and containing amongst others Greek philosophy and Roman law. Might also want to read about Scholasticism.

Etymologiae was a sort of encyclopedia. To say that its existance during the middle ages represented the preservation of roman literature would be like saying that if we burned every book in English except the Encyclopedia Britannica that English literature was surviving.

Are you just contesting the idea that the Roman Empire collapsed? Why don't you go ahead and develop that idea?

[Colonâ„¢]

I've said repeatedly the Roman Empire as state indeed collapsed but I don't believe Greco-Roman culture vanished. There is a difference.

Nice how you ignore Scholasticism. I suppose the University of Bologna, and the existance of scholars educated in Roman law and Greek philosophy that led to it, would be just another one of the many isolated abberations of Greco-Roman culture post-imperium.

[Traianvs]

Re: The collapse of the Roman Empire.

Originally posted by Odin
I've been reading a very good book on Late Antiquity called The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians by Peter Heather. Heather claims that it was mainly 2 things, the rise of Sassanid Persia and the arrival of the Huns, that ultimately lead to the collapse of the Western Empire.

The need to counter the Sassanid threat stretched the Roman military machine to it's limit, the Roman economy was groaning under the strain. Things were fine as long as the Germans acted as the usually did (that is, the "normal" levels of raiding the Rhine-Danube limes could handle), but when the Huns arrived the Germans stopped acting like they usually did. What started as a relative "trickle" of refugees in 376 became a raging torrent by 407 as the Huns pushed westward, Rome's northern frontiers were simply overwhelmed, the Roman state could not hold off the Sassanids and the incoming waves of Germans at the same time.

Not having read the book it's hard to refute its arguments, but it's simply exaggerated to say the Huns and the Sassanids caused the collapse. Already in the second half of the second century Marcus Aurelius had a tremendously hard time pushing back Germans barbarians penetrating the Danube limes, and it would only get worse. On top of that the Persian predecessors, the Parthians, had been troubling the Romans for centuries, and it was just the same situation with the Sassanids. The problems were too varied to name them all here: social, ethnic, economic, military. You could see it coming a mile away. When the Huns came that meant the little extra that really started the collapse, but you can't really say that was the reason.

Even in antiquity economic power was political power. And like everything in society, a bad economical situation entails problems in other domains. On a sidenote: In my opinion it all started with the massive influx of foreigners in Rome that brought with it the demise of Roman tradition, because Rome in the empire was not really a city of Romans, but rather a melting pot of various kinds of people with a doubtful allegiance, especially with the massive amounts of freedmen later on (the imperial administration was largely based on them!)

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


I've said repeatedly the Roman Empire as state indeed collapsed but I don't believe Greco-Roman culture vanished. There is a difference.

Yes, because I'm staying on topic trying to make my argument regarding the causes of the demise of Rome. I never said that aspects of Roman culture did not survive.

Nice how you ignore Scholasticism. I suppose the University of Bologna, and the existance of scholars educated in Roman law and Greek philosophy that led to it, would be just another one of the many isolated abberations of Greco-Roman culture post-imperium.

Uhhh, the University of Bologna was founded some 600 years after the death of (western) Rome. It's fostering of Roman law does not constitute the survival of the Roman state. Six hundred years is a long time to wait for CPR.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Jeez, Greco-Roman literature disappeared for nearly 10 centuries.

Not in Irish monasteries it didn't.

In the 18th century it became fashionable to mimic Roman architecture, fashion and philosophy.

Because in part the new Atlantic empire builders wanted to have an ancient precedent.

It was 'fashionable' in French literature in the 17th Century to hark back to the unities of Classical Greek tragedy (mercifully for the English stage, only Ben Jonson took this as a paradigm too).

Seneca's bloody plays served as exemplars for early Elizabethan plays (Thomas Kyd, et cetera).