Fellows Europeans, do you need visas to enter in the USA or not?

[DAVOUT]

We understood that the US strongly supported the Eastern European countries joining the EU. But we did not know that they will not enjoy the same privilege than the other members of the Union for travelling to the US. When this was disclosed, the EU said that we want to be all treated the same way, which is a quite normal policy for a union. And the US answered, no problem, you will all be treated like the eastern countries.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The US does not recognize the EU as a political entity, nor does it currently extend visa waiver privileges to EU countries because they are in the EU (in fact, at least one "old" EU country, Greece, in not part of the Visa Waiver Program). Each country that's part of the Visa Waiver Program is their on its individual merits; EU membership means nothing one way or the other.

[Pekka]

No, I don't need a visa. I live in a country that doesn't need one. We've made a deal and continue to make them. No reason for us Finns to have visas. We have passports issued by the state and only by the state

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
The US does not recognize the EU as a political entity, nor does it currently extend visa waiver privileges to EU countries because they are in the EU (in fact, at least one "old" EU country, Greece, in not part of the Visa Waiver Program). Each country that's part of the Visa Waiver Program is their on its individual merits; EU membership means nothing one way or the other.

So the EU intending to reciprocate in cancelling the visa waiver privileges to the US is perfectly right.

[Patroklos]

No, because we are not part of some formal large group of countries like the EU. The only comparison is if you tried to issue waivers by state, have no idea how you would pull that off.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Pekka
No, I don't need a visa. I live in a country that doesn't need one. We've made a deal and continue to make them. No reason for us Finns to have visas. We have passports issued by the state and only by the state

Normal. The US would not dare to bother the diabolic Finns with trivialities like visas.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


So the EU intending to reciprocate in cancelling the visa waiver privileges to the US is perfectly right.

Good luck with that. The cost to you in extra consular officers, extra border patrol officials, and lost revenue from tourists who will skip the trip rather than suffer the hassle will far outweigh any political point you're trying to make.

The same is true, in reverse, whenever we stupidly threaten to take European counties off the VWP, as we did a couple of years ago; it's a cost-prohibitive, empty threat.

[The Vagabond]

"To mess with one is to mess with all", wasn't that the name of a recent thread?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166025

A few weeks ago a news slept through the media that the US and Russia were considering a visa-free regime for each other. I don't know how serious it was, but the Polish reaction was approximately like this: "How can it be?! We kiss their ass, the Russkies took up a tough stance, and yet it is the Russkies that seem to be closer to a visa-free regime! Perhaps we should rather follow the Russkie example?"

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No, because we are not part of some formal large group of countries like the EU. The only comparison is if you tried to issue waivers by state, have no idea how you would pull that off.

Then why are you discussing this point with EU authorities?

[Pekka]

Exactly. Finns also get unproportional amount of them green cards in lotteries. I mean, it is proportional, the amount of Finns going for it is virtually small, so a lot of people can get it just entering the lottory. It's actually realistic that way as well.

Considering there's not a whole lot of us (5mil), the nation is stable and partner in many programs plus we don't have much problems in here, especially with crime, organized crime or terrorism, I should also mention corruption is low, so basically passports are enough. We had to take a deal, where we get new passports if we want to go to the US, as many other Euro nations as well.

So I don't think the problem is, you see the visa is mostly so we can have a document that you are going to come and LEAVE. So that's not a problem with us, and we're also not a country that is used as a proxy, so it's not like a lot of people are coming via Finland.

So we can guarantee little to no problems with it. A lot of countries can't really do that. They can say it, but they can't do it. Like I said, we're a small place, it can be controlled. So it's a safe bet.

I've travelled the US quite a bit, never had any problems. Well, I had to go through extra security once, but I ordered a bunch of tickets for a flight for the next day, using a credit card that wasn't mine and I wasn't even in the city that the flight was going to take off. Plus our names were difficult for them to understand, even with spelling. Like Pekka. Try to spell that to some of these people, they just get it wrong. Seems to me they also weren't the sharpest knives in the kitchen.

Well anyway, the point is, I can go without any problems, the only suspicion there might be is if someone don't know where Finland is. Then I just say Scandinavia, and they're like everything is OK. Just say Northern Europe. I think it translates into "Safe". But that's what it is. It is safe. It is only logical to respect the reality of it.

Can you these things for the EU as a whole? NO.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
So the EU intending to reciprocate in cancelling the visa waiver privileges to the US is perfectly right.

Only if the EU is full of idiots...

[Pekka]

I think what worries the US is the possibility of EU countries being used as a proxy as means to enter the US. This is the right way to react to it as well. It is ridiculous how some EU countries don't give a damn about this scenario.

You can just destroy your IDs and enter EU and get a new one, with the name you want. It's a _joke_.

Why would I ever want to deal with an entity, that basically can be used easily as a proxy, an entity that has Schengen and such deals that you can just disappear inside EU and function where ever you want with no problems, that is these things that are of concern in here are the reasons why I would never treat EU as an entity that should have some kidn of principle right to things like No Visa policy. It is too easily abused.

And what are you going to do after that? Just demand visas for all Euros? That would be very foolish.

So, the best thing to do is categorize to the best of your ability and see who can get it and who can't as of now. This way at least SOME can have the no visa policy.

I totally agree with this policy and how it is handled. EU is too much of an abstract anyway. It can expand and it will, there's no predicting. So to have a principle about it is not realistic.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Only if the EU is full of idiots...

Any opinion on that subject?

[Pekka]

But DAVOUT, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing Schengen and the likes. I think that's one of the few benefits EU actually has, as I'm critical about the whole thing. I'm not into this whole Euro hegemony, but what I am into is the possibilities of stronger market place, a great consumer zone where EU can actually weigh in and have some kind of influence in the globalized market.

I think the idea that we can move freely, work and live within the area, I like that as well. Basically I like all the things that are now easier to do within this region than before. Everything else?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Pekka
I think what worries the US is the possibility of EU countries being used as a proxy as means to enter the US. This is the right way to react to it as well. It is ridiculous how some EU countries don't give a damn about this scenario.

You can just destroy your IDs and enter EU and get a new one, with the name you want. It's a _joke_.

Why would I ever want to deal with an entity, that basically can be used easily as a proxy, an entity that has Schengen and such deals that you can just disappear inside EU and function where ever you want with no problems, that is these things that are of concern in here are the reasons why I would never treat EU as an entity that should have some kidn of principle right to things like No Visa policy. It is too easily abused.

And what are you going to do after that? Just demand visas for all Euros? That would be very foolish.

So, the best thing to do is categorize to the best of your ability and see who can get it and who can't as of now. This way at least SOME can have the no visa policy.

I totally agree with this policy and how it is handled. EU is too much of an abstract anyway. It can expand and it will, there's no predicting. So to have a principle about it is not realistic.

The problem is that the US where enthousiatic about 100% of the population of the eastern countries joining the EU freely, and they cant afford some travelers to enter the States without visas.