Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

10% of Marines in Iraq admit to "mistreating" civilians

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 10% of Marines in Iraq admit to "mistreating" civilians

    http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/0...ethics_070503/
    About 44 percent of Marines in a survey believe torture should be allowed if it would save the life of a fellow Marine, according to a 2006 military mental health assessment.

    In addition, only slightly more than one-third of the nearly 450 leathernecks polled in Iraq last year — 38 percent — told members of the Mental Health Advisory Team that they believe all non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect. That finding was notably lower than the 47 percent of soldiers who were asked that same question, according to briefing slides presented by the team of Army medical officers to Commandant Gen. James Conway on April 18.

    The team was commissioned by U.S. Central Command. A copy of the study’s results was obtained by Marine Corps Times.

    A Corps spokesman did not dispute the team’s findings. “We are convinced that in broad outline this is an honest, sincere and faithful effort that attempts to accurately capture what our Marines think and do in combat,” said Corps spokesman Lt. Col. Scott Fazekas. “It is one more set of data in a series that has taken on tough issues. We will closely consider the report and its recommendations.”

    The study also found that 39 percent believe torture should be allowed to gather information about insurgents, and 17 percent said all non-combatants should be treated as insurgents.

    Of surveyed soldiers, 4 percent reported hitting or kicking noncombatants when it was not necessary; among Marines, 7 percent reported doing so.

    About one in 10 Marines reported mistreating non-combatants, the briefing slides said.


    At the same time, Marines are racking up considerable combat experience, the study found. More than half of Marines, or 58 percent, polled have experienced roadside bombs or booby traps, and about the same amount found themselves on the receiving end of small-arms fire.

    Troops with high levels of combat were more likely to engage in unethical behaviors than troops with low levels of combat, the briefing slides said.

    The study’s findings go against Corps basics, said one retired general.

    “Treating people with dignity and respect is a value taught to Marines from the time they enter their initial training and throughout their careers, so this result, to me, is inexplicable,” said retired Lt. Gen. Paul Van Riper, who formerly commanded Marine Corps Combat Development Command at Quantico, Va.

    The study also found that only 40 percent of Marines said they would report a unit member for injuring or killing an innocent non-combatant, whereas 55 percent of soldiers affirmed that they would turn in a fellow soldier for wrongdoing.

    Such statistics could indicate “a misplaced loyalty to other members of the unit vice a higher loyalty the Corps expects with regard to regulations,” Van Riper said. “If so, this is not a difficult problem to overcome with proper training.”

    The three-month study began in August 2006, just two months after the Corps made “Warrior Ethics” refresher training mandatory for those deployed in Iraq, following allegations of battlefield misconduct in Hadithah and Hamdaniya.
    I really can't say that I'm surprised by this.

    Last edited by Slaughtermeyer; May 28, 2007, 15:54.
    Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

  • #2
    That means 90% of Marines haven't done what you insinuate with this thread. Good deal.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SlowwHand
      That means 90% of Marines haven't done what you insinuate with this thread. Good deal.
      The poll did not take into account the time spent in Iraq, so it's quite likely that 0 percent of Marines who just arrived for the first time in Iraq mistreated civilians, and something like 20 percent of those near the end of their tour deliberately mistreated civilians.

      EDIT: Actually the poll does confirm my theory, because it states that "troops with high levels of combat were more likely to engage in unethical behaviors than troops with low levels of combat..."
      Last edited by Slaughtermeyer; May 28, 2007, 15:58.
      Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer
        EDIT: Actually the poll does confirm my theory, because it states that "troops with high levels of combat were more likely to engage in unethical behaviors than troops with low levels of combat..."
        This is really strange - troops with high levels of combat are more often at the risk of harming non-combatants.

        Is there any studies that gives an indication of why it is so ?
        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

        Steven Weinberg

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BlackCat


          This is really strange - troops with high levels of combat are more often at the risk of harming non-combatants.

          Is there any studies that gives an indication of why it is so ?
          My gut feeling would be that people with high levels of combat experience are more likely to have seen their buddies killed and maimed by insurgents, and for that reason more likely to have more frustration and anger which they vent on civilians.
          Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer

            The poll did not take into account the time spent in Iraq, so it's quite likely that 0 percent of Marines who just arrived for the first time in Iraq mistreated civilians, and something like 20 percent of those near the end of their tour mistreated civilians.

            EDIT: Actually the poll does confirm my theory, because it states that "troops with high levels of combat were more likely to engage in unethical behaviors than troops with low levels of combat..."
            So what you're saying is that after a time, troops get tired of "civilian" suicide bombers? I can understand that viewpoint.
            Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
            "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
            He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

            Comment


            • #7
              It makes sense to me that the experienced ones would be responsible for more civilian stuff. Why? Because they don't have as much hesitation as the newbies. Why? Because they're veterans of combat. That is, they survived to do it again.

              but about mistreating, as in no danger but beating up someone and stuff like that.. I guess they are more ****ed up in the head by then so the line of where the morality and ethical action goes is blurred.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer

                My gut feeling would be that people with high levels of combat experience are more likely to have seen their buddies killed and maimed by insurgents, and for that reason more likely to have more frustration and anger which they vent on civilians.
                I think we seriously need an irony smiley - the message apparently went so high above your head that you missed it.

                High level of combat in urban areas has a tendency to raise the risk of injure or kill innocent bystanders.

                My gut feeling is that those that have had several such incidents are less prone to hurt bystanders due to their hard gained experience while a newbie probably has a higher risk.
                With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                Steven Weinberg

                Comment


                • #9
                  only slightly more than one-third of the nearly 450 leathernecks polled in Iraq last year — 38 percent — told members of the Mental Health Advisory Team that they believe all non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect.
                  I imagine the experience of foot soldiers with "non-combatants" varies and less than satisfactory encounters occur. If you dont respect the Muslim religion, its kinda hard to respect some a-hole beating on a woman for showing too much skin.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    it depends on the person.

                    some people are straight out of basic traing, ignorant and immoral and would do such things if put in those situations. But mostly it comes from being just tired and fed up with military bureacracy, coupled with being stressed of deployment that causes people to act on their own decision.
                    :-p

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      They're idiots who are trained to kill not help you cross the street and they can't see their enemy so what do you expect them to do, go play solitaire to relieve the frustration ?
                      As for the ethics of it, well, it's like questioning if it's wrong for a dog with rabies to bite somebody.
                      Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendant, and to embrace them is to acheive enlightenment.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pekka
                        but about mistreating, as in no danger but beating up someone and stuff like that.. I guess they are more ****ed up in the head by then so the line of where the morality and ethical action goes is blurred.
                        You've paraphrased what the military itself admitted when it stated that "Mental health services are most needed during the last six months of a year-long deployment since this is when Soldiers experience the most problems" and that "Soldiers/Marines with mental health problems were more likely to mistreat non-combatants..."
                        Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, I mean what do you expect?

                          THis is not the time or a place for the soldier. You go in, you expect to fight, to do battle. I mean I don't think I'm wrong when I say that many of these young guys, they're expecting to do some stuff that is close to what we see in movies, hero stuff. Or just a battle. Just war.

                          That's what they're trained for. Then they get in there, and what do they get? Patrolling, a messy conflict with groups of people changing sides every other week, a totally different culture, angry people who have been sodomized for decades now by different people, and where is the enemy??!! You know.. there's no fighting that was expected when joining the army. Some urban warfare even, not even that really. THere's no district that you can just go in and shoot everything that moves.

                          So. You're pretty much out of the comfort zone of knowing what to do, this isn't stuff ordinary soldiers are supposed to be doing. They're supposed to do battle, not some peacekeeping with the daily ambush or whatever, and then on weekends you get to do raids on people's houses.

                          Who signed up for that? I think it's reasonable to not blame these guys for getting into something different, I think it's reasonable, that they'd be given a fight. But that's not going to happen. So I think a lot of people come to realization of being unaware of what it was going to be, and they don't like what it is and they have every right to think and feel so - this isn't a job for a soldier to be doing.

                          So. Then you notice that it's still dangerous, people getting killed all the time, injured, all this mess, and you can't really do your fighting like the way you expected. What do you do? You still have almost a year left. I figure a lot of people go little light in the head after this realization.
                          In da butt.
                          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer

                            You've paraphrased what the military itself admitted when it stated that "Mental health services are most needed during the last six months of a year-long deployment since this is when Soldiers experience the most problems" and that "Soldiers/Marines with mental health problems were more likely to mistreat non-combatants..."
                            http://www.militarytimes.com/static/...tiv18apr07.pdf
                            You seem to have a tendency to see conspiracies in the obvious.

                            There is a huge difference between the need of mental health services after a long service and having mental health problems that can lead to mistreat civilians.
                            With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                            Steven Weinberg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It would be better if military members were unbothered by anything they experienced or saw.
                              Wait a minute. That was what he was saying earlier. That the military bastards don't care. Then it bothers him, that it does bother them.
                              You're a hard to please kind of guy, aren't you, Slaughtermeyer? You dumb bastard.
                              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X