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Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideology?

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  • Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideology?

    Simple enough question.

    Today religion enjoys a special place in public discourse. Criticisms of religion are often muted, specially when of a religion which is "controversial", or "beloved of the pseudo-liberals", such as Islam.

    My point is this:

    If a religion dictates to its followers about matters of this world, then it should be treated as any other ideology relating to those same matters would, insofar as its treatment of those matters goes?

    That is, if religion X makes a certain commandment about economics, then it should be open to criticism as any other economic theory would be insofar as its commandments on economics are concerned.

    Similarly, commandments on morality, food habits, and other temporal things should be open to the same rational criticism as any other ideology dealing with these things would be.

    If, for instance, an ideology said that its followers should kill people who leave that ideological group, would it be spared the harshest criticism? But when certain religions say the same thing, why are they spared? Should not the same standard apply?

    The only place where I can see this not applying is when the religion speaks of what religions should speak of: man, his soul, God, and the soul's relationship with him. Here we can use the "religious" standard, and make our criticism more respectful than otherwise.

    However, let us note that a God meddling in human affairs, or others equivalent to human affairs, should be open to the same criticism any other entity existing on the temporal plane would be.

    Why this double standard?

    Why is it that if I claim to be an economist, and say that nobody should charge interest, then people will not hesitate to call me mad, but if I claim to be a "religious" economist, then people will suddenly mute their criticism? If they can say that X is rubbish, why to they go silent when I say, "God said X"? Does the invocation of the G-word suddenly suspend people's ability to think or criticise? More importantly, should it?

  • #2
    Spammer.
    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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    • #3
      Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideology?

      Originally posted by aneeshm
      Simple enough question.

      Today religion enjoys a special place in public discourse. Criticisms of religion are often muted, specially when of a religion which is "controversial", or "beloved of the pseudo-liberals", such as Islam.

      My point is this:

      If a religion dictates to its followers about matters of this world, then it should be treated as any other ideology relating to those same matters would, insofar as its treatment of those matters goes?

      That is, if religion X makes a certain commandment about economics, then it should be open to criticism as any other economic theory would be insofar as its commandments on economics are concerned.

      Similarly, commandments on morality, food habits, and other temporal things should be open to the same rational criticism as any other ideology dealing with these things would be.

      If, for instance, an ideology said that its followers should kill people who leave that ideological group, would it be spared the harshest criticism? But when certain religions say the same thing, why are they spared? Should not the same standard apply?

      The only place where I can see this not applying is when the religion speaks of what religions should speak of: man, his soul, God, and the soul's relationship with him. Here we can use the "religious" standard, and make our criticism more respectful than otherwise.

      However, let us note that a God meddling in human affairs, or others equivalent to human affairs, should be open to the same criticism any other entity existing on the temporal plane would be.

      Why this double standard?

      Why is it that if I claim to be an economist, and say that nobody should charge interest, then people will not hesitate to call me mad, but if I claim to be a "religious" economist, then people will suddenly mute their criticism? If they can say that X is rubbish, why to they go silent when I say, "God said X"? Does the invocation of the G-word suddenly suspend people's ability to think or criticise? More importantly, should it?
      If I respond to this post with some examples from Jewish law, would that be a logical response to A's post, or would it be me posting excessively about Judaism?
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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      • #4
        Re: Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideol

        Originally posted by lord of the mark


        If I respond to this post with some examples from Jewish law, would that be a logical response to A's post, or would it be me posting excessively about Judaism?
        Logical response, if it's relevant.

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        • #5
          DO NOT LET ASHER AFFECT YOUR POSTING.

          As for the OP... well, being an atheist and all, my answer is obvious.

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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          • #6
            I don't think a double standard exists?
            Resident Filipina Lady Boy Expert.

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            • #7
              Why is it that if I claim to be an economist, and say that nobody should charge interest, then people will not hesitate to call me mad, but if I claim to be a "religious" economist, then people will suddenly mute their criticism?
              I think that they're just trying to be respectful of someone else's religion...but just because they don't voice their critcisms doesn't mean they don't have them.

              As to the thrust of your argument, I believe you are correct. Individuals can and should based their actions on their religious beliefs, but this doesn't grant such actions immunity from challenges. Your "interest" example is an ideal one .

              On the other hand, if a religion bars an individual from doing "X", while a member of that religion should refrain from it, this doesn't necessarily mean even non-members have to refrain. For example, eating pork. Many religions forbid eating it, and it's fine if their members don't. But don't try to keep me from my morning bacon.

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              • #8
                Re: Re: Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideol

                Originally posted by aneeshm


                Logical response, if it's relevant.
                It depends if the religion makes an economic (or indeed, other scientific) claim in asserting the law.

                Trad Judaism bans pork. Some Jews and non-Jews say this is for health reasons. However most traditional authorities say we should avoid it simply to follow the creators word, and while we may guess at the reasons (and health is only one reason guessed at) we must follow it regardless. It doesnt matter to J if pork is proven healthy (and undoubtedly, pork raised today under modern conditions, and consumed as part of a balanced diet, IS healthy)

                OTOH Jewish rabbis at one point stated that fish and meat should not be eaten from the same plate, EXPLICITLY because it was unhealthy. Today we know it is not unhealthy. My movement the Conservative Jewish movement, has reversed the ruling. Most Orthodox jews still follow it. My understanding though, is, if pressed, they would not defend the outdated science, but would insist on the value of maintaining customs.

                Lets move on to economics. The bible proclaims a jubilee year, every 49 years, in which all loans are forgiven. It was already recognized 2000 years ago that whatever benefits there were to this in terms of rebalancing wealth in the society, it effectively prevented loands toward the end of the 49 year period, harming would be borrowers. Hillel came up with a loophole (the exact nature of which is not relevant) to make possible loans that would not be nullified at the jubilee year.

                Similar concerns come with bans on interest.

                Again, Id say if someone makes an economic assertion "bans on interest are beneficial to the poor" that can of course be contested on economic grounds. If someone says "a ban on interest is required by the Hadith" you can only argue against that by arguing about the Hadith, not about economics.

                Recently Conservative Judaism had a very bitter fight, the ramifications of which are not yet complete, about allowing gay commitment ceremonies and the ordination of gay rabbis. Recent scientific research played a role, as did questions about religious relevance of that research. If you would like some links Id provide.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                • #9
                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideol

                  nm
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                  • #10
                    Are we not worth you coming up with original material for?
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • #11
                      Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideology?

                      Originally posted by aneeshm
                      Why is it that if I claim to be an economist, and say that nobody should charge interest, then people will not hesitate to call me mad, but if I claim to be a "religious" economist, then people will suddenly mute their criticism? If they can say that X is rubbish, why to they go silent when I say, "God said X"? Does the invocation of the G-word suddenly suspend people's ability to think or criticise? More importantly, should it?
                      Because, in general, war sucks.
                      "In the beginning was the Word. Then came the ******* word processor." -Dan Simmons, Hyperion

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                      • #12
                        Religion should not be immune to the type of criticism that any other belief-and-value system can be subject to. The idea that a system is 'protected', just because some of its adherents jump up and down and howl in outrage because their feelings have been hurt, is anathema to a modern, progressive and open environment of debate.

                        What we have seen, is that because everyone feels obliged to tip-toe around Islam for fear of getting blown up, is that other religions feel might obliged to 'compete', and become less tolerant of criticism themselves.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Should religions which dictate material affairs be treated as any other ideology?

                          Originally posted by aneeshm
                          The invocation of the G-word suspend people's ability to think and criticise.
                          Corrected.
                          With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                          Steven Weinberg

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                          • #14
                            Any religion which required the suspension of thought and criticism could never be mine

                            "I am a Jew because the faith of Israel demands of me no abdication of the mind.

                            I am a Jew because the faith of Israel requires of me all the devotion of my heart."

                            Edmond Fleg
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                            • #15
                              Serious answer:

                              Probably because economic or whatever philosophies not rooted in religion rely on some form of empirical calcuation - eg. doing X this way will demonstratedly lead to more prosperity, etc. When the philosophy is rooted in religion, it probably discards such notions in favor of what is deemed "morally" correct.

                              So, to use your economic example, someone claiming to be a secular economist would be suggesting some path because they're of the opinion that it will lead to a greater net outcome. Someone who claims that you shouldn't charge interest because it's immoral doesn't give a rat's ass about increasing prosperity (or at least doesn't put it as a primary concern), but only doing what is more morally correct. The only way to attack that from a secular angle is to attack the religion as a whole.
                              "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                              "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                              "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

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