Why Giuliani is Unqualified to be Prez

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I'm not opposed to increasing CAFE standard in fact am quite the opposite, Likewise tho' my opinion is that these efforts need to be in lock step with alternate energy initiatives that are a highest national priority.

[Arrian]

Go read Osama's own words in AQ's manifesto.

I have. IIUC, however, the thing that really got them riled was their inability to re-establish the caliphate in "their" lands. I'm sure they dream of the whole world, mind you. However, it's not the lunatics such as OBL that we're concerning ourselves with here. It's more reasonable types who offer at least tacit support to AQ, and those who might someday become as radical as OBL, but are not yet.

The lefties live in a fantasy world where everything can be solved by talking it out.

I'm not exactly sure who you are addressing here. I don't think anyone here has suggested a sit-down with Osama. Further, most of us are concentrating on ways of mimizing the significance of the region - not appeasing anyone.

Goodness forbid, meanwhile, that anybody TALK about anything. If you're not dropping bombs, you're not gettin' 'r DONE!

But don't let that get in the way of your rant about lefties.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Thanks to you fantasylanders, they are winning.

Why do I hate America?

I make baby Jesus cry.

Seriously, PLATO, go **** yourself.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Fleet wide (meaning all cars and trucks in the US) average fuel economy has been dropping since 1987.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I'm not opposed to increasing CAFE standard in fact am quite the opposite, Likewise tho' my opinion is that these efforts need to be in lock step with alternate energy initiatives that are a highest national priority.

Setting higher fleet wide standards is the single biggest thing we can do to lower our use of oil and decrease green house gas output. It decreases the flow of money to terrorists in the middle east and improves the environment. It's a win-win situation.

There is no reason we shouldn't be averaging 40 mpg like the EU gets. Hell, just closing the SUV loop hole without actually bumping up the standards would in itself greatly improve fuel economy. As usual Bush tried to do nothing then when it became unavoidable (due to law suites which the Sierra Club won forcing them to actually enforce the 1975 CAFE law) Bush responded with a 0.04% increase to cafe. Basically the least amount he could get away with without getting resued by the Sierra Club.

[Arrian]

Also, I'd take that 1996 fatwa with several large grains of salt.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

He lists Bosnia as an example of the US beating on Muslims, for example. Patently absurd, and I'm thinking he knew it full well. But he used it anyway, 'cause that fatwa is propoganda.

Anyway, for most of the fatwa, the primary target is the Saudi Arabian government and of course the "Zionist-Crusader" alliance of the USA and Israel. The thrust of it is that we've allegedly attacked Muslims all over the place and kept them from reforming their own country(ies). Not that we're preventing a Muslim takeover of the World.

edit: obviously the part a right winger would focus on is the part where he mocks our resolve in the face of casualties (Beruit, Somalia). That's a fair point, of course (that running away emboldens them). It is also true that staying triggers the "crusader" crap. So in that sense it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd call that a wash.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Bosnia and Kosovo are great examples of the west helping Muslims who really stood zero chance on their own. Of course OBL is banking on most people being to stupid to know that and he's likely right.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by PLATO
Thanks to you fantasylanders, they are winning. Hope you have a nice prayer rug.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
From a national security and strategic importance role one can easily see how this could be sold to even consies like myself.

As long as the lefties don't get their opportunities to use it as a means to bash industry and limit growth. The energy independence initiative needs to be done such that it isn't all about conservation but that it also means marked investment and incentivizing other energy as a top national priority.

Right. Of course. How would we have predicted that you would propose that we give more money to corporations? I guess public transportation and taxes wouldn't work for some reason.

[Arrian]

The eeeevil corporations can be useful, you know. If you co-opt them by convincing them that pursuit of alternative fuels could be profitable, then instead of fighting the gummint tooth and nail, they help. And, of course, make profits, which I know is terrible

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I believe IIRC if anything Osama blamed the US for its involvement in the first gulf war and the most egregious of all faults was the stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia afterwards.

Along with this littany were other lesser crimes of:

- complicity with and daring to call Israel an ally (a nice uniter for all ME peoples)
- decadence of lifet style
- not following the islamic faith
etc. etc.

Point being while Paul is technically correct that US foreign policy may have pissed off Osama, there was no freakin way we were going to change our Foreign policy around the most crucial offense in Osama's eyes allowing Kuwait to be in control of Iraq or for that matter not providing the requisite stabilizing forces there after GW1. To blame US foreign policy and act as if there was f#ck all we could have done otherwise from 92 on (when he really started his campaign against the US) is ludicrous.

Anything that might have led to GW1 is pretty much crying over spilled milk.

The fanaticals are going to be pissed off at us anyway. True there is nothing we can do about that. What we can do is limit the support that they have with the muslim people who are not yet fanatics. When we have such military presence and meddle in the affairs of their govts that just helps the terrorists. I'm not saying that we should do whatever the fanatics want just that we should act smarter. The only thing we can do is stop helping the fanatics.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

See the idea has merit and appeals to moderates like Arrian, lefties like Oerdin, and consies such as myself. The only people who are left out in the cold are folks like Kidicious, who deserve to be.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
The eeeevil corporations can be useful, you know. If you co-opt them by convincing them that pursuit of alternative fuels could be profitable, then instead of fighting the gummint tooth and nail, they help. And, of course, make profits, which I know is terrible

-Arrian

First, we don't know if it's profitable, or how much we would have to subsidize them. Second, we all ready pretty much now that public transportation and taxing works. Three, why should we just give our tax money to corporations.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
The thrust of it is that we've allegedly attacked Muslims all over the place and kept them from reforming their own country(ies). Not that we're preventing a Muslim takeover of the World.


-Arrian

My understanding is that their vision is that once theyve got a caliphate established from Indonesia to Morrocco, from Bosnia to Nigeria, including the lands that used to be Israel, India, etc, the whole world would be so impressed by the miracle that everyone would more or less spontaneously convert to Islam.

Frankly, Id rather not wait and see what happens at that point, whether we are still importing oil or not.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
See the idea has merit and appeals to moderates like Arrian, lefties like Oerdin, and consies such as myself. The only people who are left out in the cold are folks like Kidicious, who deserve to be.

I would think you consies just MIGHT be able to do the microeconomic analysis to see why taxing oil imports, or even carbon or gasoline, is a superior approach to raising CAFE standards. Something about letting the market decide where the lowest cost savings/alternate production can be achieved.

I mean if even us neoliberal new dems can see it .....