Why Giuliani is Unqualified to be Prez

[Elok]

Oerdin, a thousand years ago we (the Western world) were the savages and the Arabs were the most advanced society on earth. We invaded them, they brushed us off, and in the process we absorbed a good deal of their learning. From that initial spark we grew, aided by the enormous influx of resources from New World colonies, while they sat and stagnated. Result: our situations have now exactly reversed. You know all this, of course; I'm just reminding you.

Give us another millenium under asshats like Bush, and give the Arabic world time to grow (absorbing our culture at their own pace) and develop leaders who aren't totally crooked, and you might see another switch. Look at the UAE. They're hideously nouveau riche, yes, but they've built a lot in less than a century.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Why would we leave the entire ME because Iraq is done?

Because that's what pisses them off. Same reason we didn't want missiles in Cuba, if you can imagine.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Even Osama knows the Arabs themselves won't support an Pan-Arab country. He's just pissed off at the infidels that he believes, rightly may I add, that most Arabs will support killing people of other religions. Arabs are just medieval savages like that. The rest of the world has progressed on but the Arabs, indeed most Muslims, as still primative savages. That's just the role which Muslim societies play. One day they might progress beyond it but they will have to give up their violent religion and join civilization first.

I think the biggest fear that they have is that their people will rebel against their religion. I don't think they are as pissed off about Isreal as they act. They just don't want their people to know what they are really afraid of.

[Kidlicious]

Re: Why Giuliani is Unqualified to be Prez

Originally posted by Berzerker
The reason this is so important to me is that these people are leading us to a bigger war by denying US foreign policy over the decades has anything to do with the hatred we see over there. If they hate us for existing there is nothing we can do but fight, but if they hate us because we've been over there screwing around pissing people off, then there is something we can do about it - LEAVE! But they have oil... The fact this lying scumbag (Rudy cant be that stupid) would stand there and demand a retraction of the truth and repeat that Bu**** lie disqualifies him from office...

They do hate us for existing, but that doesn't mean we have to keep our troops over there. That's what the terrorists want. That makes us look like the bad guys that they want us to look like.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I believe IIRC if anything Osama blamed the US for its involvement in the first gulf war and the most egregious of all faults was the stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia afterwards.

Along with this littany were other lesser crimes of:

- complicity with and daring to call Israel an ally (a nice uniter for all ME peoples)
- decadence of lifet style
- not following the islamic faith
etc. etc.

Point being while Paul is technically correct that US foreign policy may have pissed off Osama, there was no freakin way we were going to change our Foreign policy around the most crucial offense in Osama's eyes allowing Kuwait to be in control of Iraq or for that matter not providing the requisite stabilizing forces there after GW1. To blame US foreign policy and act as if there was f#ck all we could have done otherwise from 92 on (when he really started his campaign against the US) is ludicrous.

Anything that might have led to GW1 is pretty much crying over spilled milk.

[Patroklos]

Because that's what pisses them off. Same reason we didn't want missiles in Cuba, if you can imagine.

Really, we have possible armagedon inflicting weapons in the ME?

Are you sure the Sunni populations of the ME want to deal with Iran by themselves? The Saudis might have something to say about that. Bahrain, Qutar and the UAE don't seem to mind any sort of Western influence/money input at all, military or whatever.

And then there is the UN, God only knows how many resolutions guaruntee a military presence (at least naval) in every ME body of water forever. I bet there are no ME signatures on any of those.

[Ecthy]

Reshape the ME. Kick the Baath and royal houses out and have moderate Islamists install their odd Muslim republics a la Iran. Will produce a counterweight against the latter, canalize Islamist forces and the only reason we don't do is is the status quo regimes in the way.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ecthy is a neocon.

[Arrian]

Not very many people want to hear that our actions have had anything to do with the hatred of the US in the ME. People get very defensive about that.

However, there has to be a line somewhere between doing everything in our power to antagonize the crazies and appeasing the crazies. Even if we withdrew all our troops from the region, they'd still be pissed off about Israel. Even if we dropkicked Israel to the curb (just a tad unlikely, dontcha think?), they'd be pissed about our relations with various "apostate" governments in the ME, which we would still have b/c we still want to buy oil.

The only way we could possibly wash our hands completely of the ME is to reduce our oil demand to close to zero, something that isn't going to happen in the foreseable future, even if we go all-out on alternative fuels starting now (which, lipservice aside, we're not). And that still leaves the issue of Israel. What are we gonna do? Abandon an ally? Yeah, great foreign policy move there.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Arrian

Zactly. Stop the *****ing about our US foreign policy it is one of necessity that will inevitably piss off the likes of Osama. Blame US first serves nothing as there is nothing we can necessarily cede to make the problem go away.

[Pekka]

OO, yeah but is that what he really said? No. He was explaining the situation to his udnerstanding, and as you pointed out that he was technically correct, the point was that what would he do with the situation NOW. So, taking all that background info, he would withdraw immidiately.

The only ludicrous thing in it was that Giuliani's answer to that was "SO YOU ARE SAYING WE INVITED THE TERRORISTS?? I'D LIKE YOU TO APOLOGIZE" and blaablaablaa. Either Giuliani is stupid, or he was just playing with rhetorics. BEcause that's not at all what he said. So no, he didn't do the "blame America first" thing .

It was part of the arguments why he would withdraw now and would like to see more isolationist policy in the future. In order to strengthen the defense and to avoid unpredicatlbe scenarios. And to save tax payer dollars.

[Arrian]

The flip side to that very same coin is to remember that simply because a nut like Osama can't be appeased, it doesn't mean our FP shouldn't be examined.

Our FP has been a ****ed up mess as long as I can remember. It likely always will be, which to me means there will always be room for improvement. I'm all for a calm, cool, collected review of it and changes where appropriate.

I *do* think that terrorism directed at us has as one of its roots our FP. That right there is enough to get lots of people pretty angry at me.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Pekka
OO, yeah but is that what he really said? No. He was explaining the situation to his udnerstanding, and as you pointed out that he was technically correct, the point was that what would he do with the situation NOW. So, taking all that background info, he would withdraw immidiately.

Great! Allow the wack jobs all the oil we damn near unanimously thought so necessary to defend back in 92.

[Patroklos]

Not very many people want to hear that our actions have had anything to do with the hatred of the US in the ME. People get very defensive about that.

And even if I do recognize that our foreign policy is the cause, doesn't mean in the big picture that policy is not correct.

Am I supposed to destroy my economy to satisfy a group of disaffected upper class muslim wannabe revolutionaries?

Even if we did become oil independent ourselves, doesn't mean it is not in our best interests to guarantee the supply to the rest of the world. And of course once our oil dollars disappear they will blame us for the crippling depression the area will go through as it reverts back to a useless sandbox.

[Pekka]

So what's this? A trip to the circular logic village?