Russia is teh democratcy!1!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


It would be a big deal, and worthy of mocking, but would involve a fair bit of a stretch to suggest that America isn't a democracy because of it.

And we know how Oerdin's posts are usually received.

so your only issue is with the thread title?

hint, if a thread title hsa 11!11 in it, the title isnt meant all THAT seriously.

Its not like there arent other reasons to question russian demo, though.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


A very quick look, as Russia had a Duma from 1905 to 1914, IIRC.

Its power and effectiveness were limited, hence 'no real history'.

Serfdom was only abolished in the mid 19th century. By that measure, Austria shouldnt be ready for democracy yet, either.

Blablabla. Plenty of other factors to consider, not the least one being that Austrians were a priviledged minority in the empire.

Go to Russia LOTM. Ask people what they think of Putin. The guy's not thoroughly honest, but his 80% score shows he's got some real popular support, even though it would probably be lower if the system was more free.

When Serb says that many Russians honestly support Putin, he's not lying.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
hint, if a thread title hsa 11!11 in it, the title isnt meant all THAT seriously.

In this case, about as seriously as an aneeshm thread titled, say, "Islam is teh relgion of peece!1!"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

When Serb says that many Russians honestly support Putin, he's not lying.

And a revived economy, driven largely by increased hydrocarbon prices, and a controlled media, have NOTHING to do with that, huh?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


And a revived economy, driven largely by increased hydrocarbon prices, and a controlled media, have NOTHING to do with that, huh?

By that reasoning, Ahmedinejad should win the next election by a landslide.

[Arrian]

The same could be said regarding popularity ratings of any western leader, LotM. They tend to do well when the economy is doing well, and they do poorly when the economy is not doing well ("it's the economy, stupid!"), regardless of their actual worth.

-Arrian

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


1. Ethnic Russians are the overwhelming majority of the population of Russia, like 70% or more, I think. In striking contrast to Iraq, where Sunni Arabs, the traditional ruling group, are less than 25%
2. Whats relevant is Iraqs situation in 2003. By which time their infrastructure and entire economy was on the rocks.

Currently Russias GDP per capita is about $10,000 i believe, higher than Iraqs ever was.

You're just evading the point. Again, there is an incredible number of factors to consider, like wealth redistribution, the Russian GDP being dependent on natural resource prices, etc.

As for ethnic tensions, they're not the whole story, but they're part of the equation. It's not a simple question of % of population (BTW, ethnic Russians weren't even a majority in the SU).

I can't claim to have a total answer to the question. However, I can see that Stalin (yes, Stalin) is still admired by many Russians, that Putin is popular despite his authoritarian techniques, that Russia has no history of democracy, and infer that they're still not quite there.

[BeBMan]

I have no prob to believe that Putin is viewed mainly positively at home. I can even understand it to some degree, since the country had enourmous problems before him, and he managed to get it at least back on track in certain fields (and IIRC that was for quite some time the a common impression in the West as well).

However, this type of strong man rule could very well mean a lot more problems in the future.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by BeBro
However, this type of strong man rule could very well mean a lot more problems in the future.

Perhaps. But you can take a look at what happened after the death of Stalin and imagine that once things have settled, the situation can change rapidly. They went in 40 years from a mass murdering tyrant to a soft-handed reformist.

[BeBMan]

Hm, that was the transition from one guy thug rule to the rule of a party bureaucracy, which had initially positive effects (and certainly moved away from blatant totalitarianism), but in the long run led to stagnation and the end of the Soviet Union.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by LordShiva

And we know how Oerdin's posts are usually received.

Other then three people who I am continually assualted by my posts get a pretty good response.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
The same could be said regarding popularity ratings of any western leader, LotM. They tend to do well when the economy is doing well, and they do poorly when the economy is not doing well ("it's the economy, stupid!"), regardless of their actual worth.

-Arrian

yes. Which is why we dont use the popularity numbers of a given leader, over 10 years, to make statements about the underlying political culture of the country.

[Arrian]

Not really, dude. Sorry, but even those of us inclined to agree with you (at least sometimes) find it difficult to do so. You often have trouble with the facts.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


You're just evading the point. Again, there is an incredible number of factors to consider, like wealth redistribution, the Russian GDP being dependent on natural resource prices, etc.
.

of course there are many factors. Which is why I didnt think you could make your assertion about the prospects of Russian democracy from the case of Iraq.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


By that reasoning, Ahmedinejad should win the next election by a landslide.

Ahmadinajad doesnt run the Iranian press. AFAICT the mullahs of the expediency council do. If and when they tire of him, the press will turn on him.

I would also note that Irans economy is having difficulties, due in large part to Ahmadinajads for policy.

No situation is so good SOMEONE couldnt f**K it up. Credit to Putin, though, hes not Ahmadinajad. Hes 100% sane.