A European Turkey would be more Islamist

[Last Conformist]

A basic condition for Turkish entry into the EU is that the military is firmly excluded from politics, and as the present crisis shows, that would leave the field free for the sort of moderate Islamism espoused by the AKP.

Given this, it was somewhat surprising to see strong support for the generals' recent threats from people who have also expressed strong support for Turkey's accession to the EU.

Thus, I thought we could use a threat about this; between a strictly secular Turkey and a European, fully democratic Turkey, which should we prefer, and why?

[C0ckney]

i think most europeans would rather see a secular turkey, but i don't think it's a choice as such.

turkey has a military involved in politics to prevent islmaists from gaining too much power through the ballot box, and this looks very unlikely to change. at the same time the EU will not allow a state which is not fully democratic entry. i can't see either compromising, nor in my view, should they.

[DinoDoc]

Was Tuirkey's membership ever considered a real possibility, LC? The reason you're seeing the threats at all IMO much less the support from the public they recieved is because Turkey has come to the conclusion that they never really had a chance to get into the EU.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Was Tuirkey's membership ever considered a real possibility, LC?

Certainly. The loud protests the idea has aroused from certain quarters is proof enough of that.

But I'm more interested in whether you think EU entry desirable than whether likely.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Was Tuirkey's membership ever considered a real possibility, LC?

Turkey's membership is a really polarizing issue among EU elites. There is a struggle between its supporters and its opponents. Sometimes the supporters get influent enough for Turkey's membership to become closer to reality (such as when the EU officially started membership talks in late 2004 or 2005). Sometimes the opponents get the upper hand.

IMO, Turkey's membership is possible, but only if the Turks win the hearts and minds of Europeans: Turkey's membership is mostly rejected by the European citizenry. According to a poll I saw some time ago, only 45% of the Europeans support Turkey's membership. As it happens, the EU elites consider that the EU must adress its "democracy deficit", and they can't really afford to do something as big and unpopular as letting Turkey in. Especially in an EU where the rule is consensus, not majority rule.

[Ecthy]

What some people fail to see is there never was an attempted Islamisation in the first place. Just some people are afraid of losing their socio-economic status quo and revolting, backed by the military.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ecthy
What some people fail to see is there never was an attempted Islamisation in the first place.

That's something else I'm interested in; exactly what is so detestable about the AKP? They want to deban the headscarf (which I agree with) and deliberalize marriage law (which I disagree with), but I haven't heard of any policy of theirs more drastic than what you might expect from Christian Democrats.

[Ecthy]

Has nothing to do with western Christian Democrats. Every political culture has its own status quo, and in Turkey the banning of religious symbols (fez, headscarf) in everyday life forms part of the laicist tradition.

The AKP has a radical past with Erdogan and Gül being strong favourists of Islamism. None of that justifies the recent scare.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Has nothing to do with western Christian Democrats.

You might want to expand upon that. Both are religiously inspired moderate political movements.

Every political culture has its own status quo, and in Turkey the banning of religious symbols (fez, headscarf) in everyday life forms part of the laicist tradition.

So what? Opposing it is still the right thing to do.

[Ecthy]

Fine, it seems they do fit in the tradition of Christian Democratic parties. But my main concern is with policy: how would you know what the right thing to do is in another country? If a consistent and overwhelming majority of the Turkish people support the ban on the headscarf, then unbanning it doesn't seem a proper move to me.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ecthy
But my main concern is with policy: how would you know what the right thing to do is in another country? If a consistent and overwhelming majority of the Turkish people support the ban on the headscarf, then unbanning it doesn't seem a proper move to me.

I'm sufficiently idealistic to think that individual freedom is a good worth standing for even if the majority is illiberal.

Incidentally, I was of the impression that the headscarf ban was not enjoying widespread popular support. Does anyone have link to an opinion poll or something?

[Ecthy]

All Turks that are religious nuts have already emigrated into Germany.

Liberal values are not universal.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Liberal values are not universal.

They should be!

But I'm derailing my own thread.

[Heresson]

I find it silly that some Europeans, not identifying themselves with christianity, and denying christianity its place in forming Europe, yet are so christianity-centered that they view liberal values universal, but only for christians, and perhaps jews.
I've already stated what I know in the turkish subject - yes, "europeisation" of turkish regime would mean possibility of greater influence of religion, but I do not believe in AK party turning suddenly into fully fundamentalistic one. Also, if Turkey joins EU, it will be forbidden from sudden changes in laicity of its gouverment as well, especially since profits from joining will work against anyone who'd make Turkey risk being thrown out or whatever. The worst scenario is that Turkey would be forced to comply to certain european demands, and then denied entry.
I was always hesitant and I still am, but lately I grow in favour of turkish entry. Turkey is not european by culture. It can became so, gradually, though, and Europeans themselves decided EU should not be a matter of culture.
Just that if Turkey joins, I see no reason to see Lebanon out, - or Syria, or Tunisia, or Morocco, or Iran, if they will become somewhat more democratic. Not to mention. If Turkey was to be denied, it was supposed to be done in the beginning. Now it would be a giant mistake. Not just denying it entry, but making this entry harsh and unpleasant, as EU done that in the case of Poland, for example.

[Pekka]

Heresson, why are you always wrong?