Time to back the Other Russia

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Both world wars undermined the geopolitical standing of the European powers, except for the Soviet Union in the second. If the world wars were geopolitcal triumphs for, say, Great Britain, they were triumphs of the Phyrric kind.

It depends on what you think would ultimately have been best for the UK.

But I agree that overall the world wars really sucked.

[C0ckney]

i think it's fair to say that britain would have been better off without having to fight the two world wars...

[Ecthy]

Britain had an option as to what side they would fight on

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
The very system this guy claims to want to protect is inherently cautious and wary of confrontation, because it is a system ruled by masses of people, and most people don't want to use their time and energy on crusades.

That is the paradox of these crusaders - the very system of values they champion is the least likely to take the steps they demand.

Its not clear to me that Glucksmann is actually proposing a crusade. The weakness of the above column is that it really doesnt have any concrete suggestions.

I think there are a number of steps policy makers could take, in terms of general orientation of For Policy, well short of a crusade.

And of course Glucksmann can, under the system he defends, liberal democracy, make the point that a state such as Russia appears to be developing into is dangerous to liberal democracy, and thus to the "masses". Whether that will take or not, is an open question.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Political realism dictates that any power will act according to their hard interests solely no matter what their internal organization, if they want to be successful on the international stage. The question is do we buy this blackbox bull****?

That would significantly reduce the leverage of anyone outside Russia. Its not immediately clear that that is the case, however.

[Ecthy]

The immediate answer to that politically realist estimation of Russian foreign policy making is of course that the government of a country represents certain elites who have their own interests within that country's society. This might be less true for some countries with higher spread of representation of classes (Germany as a prime example) and more for other democratic ones (strongly limited political class in the USA, France). In countries like Russia where different elites clash and fight about their respective interests, the foreign policy output is obviously strongly dependant on the elite that is most represented by the government. At the moment the Russian foreign policy is not so much determined by the oligarchs. Opening the system would change this, which is exactly why Putin is not going that way.

Discuss.

[Heresson]

ByeloRussia

?

[Ecthy]

Ukraine will be limited to the pro-Western parts of the northwest, the southeast and Byelorusia be given to Russia. The local people will not only not be asked they will cheer to this. Transnistria is ceded to Russian Ukraine as wel, Moldova finally reunited with Romania.

Want to hear my plans for the Middle East as well? Only work with Israel's incorporation into EU and NATO (or whatever replacement) though.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Chechnya seceded like other Soviet republics did. Then it got stupid and tried to 'unite' Caucasian countries.

Again, care to speculate as to how France would handle a situation in which say due to political unrest it was forced to permit Brittany to set up a virtually independent government and then that government decreed the death penalty for a variety of what we would call minor offenses such as converting a muslim to a non-muslim religion, homosexuality, a woman failing to wear a veil, etc? I guarentee that the rest of France, as well as the rest of the EU, would stand up and cheer if the French Army leveled Brest into a parking lot if it were necessary to do so in order to quell such tyranny. It bothers Europeans when such crimes against civil liberties occur in the middle east, imagine their outcry if such conditions were instituted right next door. That's what happened in Chechnya.

The difference between the wars to "liberate" Chechnya and Afghanistan is that in the case of the former the Russians applied WW2 tactics and technology against a well entrenched and determined enemy, leading to massive destruction of the cities. In the case of the latter the locals had had sufficient time to become well acquainted with the sweet disposition of the Taliban and had the organization to strike back when armed. That and the US supplemented their efforts with 21st century technology. When the dust settled the critics appeared. In the case of the former a few dissidents got threatened or even whacked. In the case of the latter, when people started noticing that our gallant allies were not exactly poster boys of the rule of law George Bush did what? Started another larger war that has killed tens of thousands and threatens to some day explode into a civil war that may yet claim millions of lives. Ooooooohhhhhhh, golly, which approach is better?

Of course it can also be pointed out that the Russians and Americans are merely busting their butts to preserve the French right to ban chardors in their schools.

[Seeker]

"Moldova finally reunited with Romania"

i'm sure all romans are waiting with baited breath for that glorious day....

[Serb]

Re: Time to back the Other Russia

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1325.html

Stinking bullsh!t.



Nothing to discuss.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by BeBro
That article in the op states lots of things we know and ends with a general call to "stand up" for freedom. That sounds always great and it's easy to write it down in the media, but it doesn't help much in any way when deciding concrete policy.

A lot of people would probably like to see more support of democratic movements, however, when doing it as part of an official state (or EU-wide) policy there's the question how far that could go without going into some sort of stupid confrontation. I don't think Russia's recent meddling into the affairs of others is a great example to follow....let's face it, noone can dictate a power like Russia or even China how to handle it's internal policy.

Pik Botha would have loved to have your encouragement at an earlier date.

The article isn't urging state action. It is encouraging public attitudes that will shape state action.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Pik Botha would have loved to have your encouragement at an earlier date.

(...) noone can dictate a power like Russia or even China how to handle it's internal policy