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  • Responsibility for vendors concerning new technogloy

    Is there any? I'm sure there are all these health issues taken cared of, or at least they are supposed to be taken cared of, in medicine there's FDA approvals as well as for food, plus medicine goes through several layers of research so we can decide if it's good enough for us. Surely some mistakes happen, some crap passes, but in general it's supposedly working well.

    However, there's very little control in my field, which is IT security. You can call it many things these days, I just prefer to call it IT security over security, IS security and what not.

    I'm not the one building these walls of paranoia, one of the biggest competencies one must have is to figure out what is realistic, what can be done about it and what should be known but no active measures needs to be taken. In risk analysis, any kind of event can take place, so you need to figure out what are the ones that count and what are the ones that are important, likely to happen, the effect of it etc. So I'm not the one suggesting that a hacker will whistle into a payphone and start the next world war by accessing some old interface simulating a modem, that's not going to happen and it never was going to happen even when they had modem access and bad design.

    But a lot of it needs to be future oriented. We can't just come up with design solutions AFTER the fact and fix some gross errors that were known before a product was placed on the market. So let's get to some of the devices that can cause problems.

    THe idea is, that a vendor will sell it if people want it. People will want it if they think they need it, if it's cool enough, and they don't think about the trade offs. I argue this should be the responsibility of the vendors or the companies coming up with these products. But I argue these entities do not care so much, if it's "good enough", it is good enough.

    So with the assumption that everything that can be hacked will be hacked, and everythign can be hacked, so everything will be hacked. A bit circular logic but I don't think a lot of people will have a problem with this. So when analyzing the risk, we should focus on the effects of it, when the hack happens. What kind of opportunities does it open, what kind of access control we have in general, what is compromised etc...

    So the problem is, everything is soon connected. We're having smart homes, everything connected. Our fridges are going to be connected, and it's going to be pretty cool actually when more products will have RFIDs, then again that presents huge problems of privacy as well as security issues, but it's still a pretty cool thing, and because it's a cool thing, we will see that soon. There's some already I figure but the idea will be fully implemented at some point. For example, you put your products in the fridge, so the fridge will know what's in it. 6 bottles of beer, butter, eggs. The fridge can identify the products via RFIDs. So it can then not only tell you what you have, it could let you know what you need to make some dinner or what ever. It can tell when a product is going out of date and let you know as well. It can be programmable, so you can watch your diet, it can tell you waht to get out of the fridge and when. It can even make you a shopping list, based on what you have, what you need to get so you can follow your diet or you can have it suggest what you might like, kind of like TiVo. You can store recipies in it, there's TONS of things you can do with it once you can enter information in it and once it can recognize what is in it. You could even schedule it to order food from internet shops, when you're low on something you really like, it'll just place an order automatically if you want it to. This is definitely not sci-fi or unrealistic, we have it right now, or we can have it if we wanted to. Easy.

    So that's the concept of smart fridge or smart anything. I'll give you few more products, and then we'll discuss the problem of them and how it relates to general security and who has responsibility over it, when the **** hits the fan, and oh yes, it will hit the fan in some households and I will give you examples...

    to be continued.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

  • #2
    Are you working on something like in "I, Robot"?

    (Get flamethrowers as a feature on them if you can. That'd be awesome!)

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    • #3
      technogloy

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      • #4
        Aeson, No I'm not .

        So, what kind of other products will build up the whole smart home thing? This is not something that will pass over time, it's going to be what people want. People like TiVo, people like the idea of it. People like to be patterned and suggested things to do, food to eat etc. It makes things interesting. Plus it has real applications for people, like health things. So there are great benefits, it's cool stuff, but we are not going to solve the security issues at all, so here are some examples of more security issues...

        So you have a car and that thing that opens the garage door for you in your car? What if someone stole your car and knew where you live? This is not a problem until they know where you live, so you wouldn't be stupid enough to leave any home information in the car.. ? OK, this isn't a big problem, but when you have tons of devices, you'll start to realize, that people can have access to your home easily, since stuff is computer assisted or run.

        With the fridge, everything that comes to life could be connected. Like TVs and computers there's the fridge, stereos, car, toaster, lights, printers, water, heating, coffee machine.. everything. It'll be cool too, and you want to use these things with some kind of ... they need to work together. That's the real benefit, there comes the added value when you have them cooperatign with each other, to serve you. A coreography of the home devices.

        You're coming home, they know you come home at 5PM, or the house will recognize you entering the house because you opened the door, motion sensors or what ever, so the coffee start automatically making itself, the lights go on the way you prefer them on fridays, stereos starts playing your favourite radio station or CD, TV turns on to your favourite channel etc. Everything the way you like it. The way you either first programmed, or the way it suggested because it was patterning and learning what you prefer, kind of like TiVo, you approved it and thus here it is.

        So... so far it's pretty cool, there are endless possibilities with these babies. I'll want one as well, don't get me wrong. SO what's the problem?

        Ok, once we have it all connected, be it wireless (Hrrrh!! think of all the people who can't secure themselves even if it can be done and is the default setting or even forced option), or PoE, it suddenly all becomes vulnerable.

        When you have enough devices like this, you're going to have some kind of an interface to it all. Something that can handle it all. Besides, you'll need to update these babies, do you think it's done by yourself or by third parties?

        For most, it'll be third parties. So they're directly accessing your home, where everything is connected. Do you think they don't have the access to the information you have given to these babies, as in what you prefer, wha tyou just did? If it logs everything, it's there, it's accesible and it will be accessed, everyone wants to make better products so they can sell it to you. How does the consumer of this product behave, how is my product used etc. You actually think it's yours when you buy it? The business will always think it as their product regardless. They want information. And this is not to scare you, it's not like they want to hurt you. They just want to make better products, learn how you use yours. That's all.

        Then again, that information can be given, sold, stolen and it often is, at least when they aren't taking care of that data well enough, or understand the interest of other parties to it. But this is more ... about the privacy side to the issue. THe security issue is another one.

        to be continued
        In da butt.
        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

        Comment


        • #5
          So the whole issue is really about ignorance. Someone will soon tell me, so what, someone can access my coffee machine. What are they going to do, make me coffee?

          There will be an interface where you can access this all, plus, you can most likely access it all remotely, with your cell phone, PDA, via the internet, what ever. You can already access your security cameras using your phone, check out the insides of your house if you want to. You think it's secure? Your house might be, but that videostream isn't. That whole connection isn't. Someone coudl be watching you by just making that intrusion. Or what if your cell phone is stolen? It has lots of goodies now. Thanks

          So soon you'll realize, that everything is connected, everything is vulnerable. So now you go into denial, that no one wants to hurt you. True, most likely this is the case, so you are going to just ignore the whole issue? It's going to be security through obscurity AT BEST for a long time.

          Then again, I might just want to find out information about you. Now I can really know everything there si to know about you, or I can just check out what kind of a TV you have, so I can come and steal it. Maybe shoot you in the face in the process.

          So there's all the externals that can't be controlled plus the "legit" third parties, all having access to your home adn everything you do, and all the information they have.

          There are things built where you can use certain RFs, imagine you can have it in your PDA, laptop, cell phone what ever. You don't need a bomb to bring down a plane anymore. You think soon we have to just trust everyone, or travel naked, with rectum search before going in?

          My point is, none of these are truly checked before entering the market, and my point is, should there be some kind of an instance, that categorizes these devices adn gives consumer recommendations and education.

          Devices are never going to be used as they were intended in the first place. Either someone wanted ot do something else (usually hackers), or a user just 'used it wrong'. It's very commonn, happens all the time. Just make sure you have your house secured.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm very worried about my attention span. I just can't read more than two lines before switching to another tab.
            "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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            • #7
              Fix your problem.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Eli
                I'm very worried about my attention span. I just can't read more than two lines before switching to another tab.
                I usually only have that problem in Pekkathreads.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eli
                  I'm very worried about my attention span. I just can't read more than two lines before switching to another tab.
                  TLDR
                  Libraries are state sanctioned, so they're technically engaged in privateering. - Felch
                  I thought we're trying to have a serious discussion? It says serious in the thread title!- Al. B. Sure

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Maybe you guys just don't really read a lot? I know my style is a lot of free driving, but these are your problems, not mine.
                    In da butt.
                    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pekka
                      Maybe you guys just don't really read a lot? I know my style is a lot of free driving, but these are your problems, not mine.
                      I actually read lots of books. It's forum messages that I have problems with.
                      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok. Give me an example where you start to drop, just quote the text and give me a point where you are dopping off, so I'll get to it and explain it to you.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Is there any?


                          You lost me there.
                          "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So this is your problem, not mine.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Where did I say it was the other way around?
                              "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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