The Permaculture Concept!

[Eli]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Its not like people in Israel ever considered the relationships among different forms of agricultural technology and organization, social structure, culture and politics.

This relationship is irrelevant in a society in which only a few percent of the population work in agriculture.

Gordon is even deader than I thought, I take it.

I vaguely remember learning about some Gordon dude in primary school... I guess it's the same one you're talking about.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli


This relationship is irrelevant in a society in which only a few percent of the population work in agriculture.

Certainly Gordon expected a very large % to work in agriculture.

However one could, Im sure, come up with a theory in which changing the structure and mindset of even a modest part of society mattered. Certainly the impact of the kibbutzim on Israeli society from 1910 to about 1970 or so was far out of proportion to the numbers who lived on them (which was only a minority of the agricultural population - OTOH from the 1940s on there was considerable non-Ag economic activity on the kibbutzim) Im not sure how that relates to the theory referenced in the OP, though.

Im merely saying that a connection among all those things does not have to be hippy BS.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli

I vaguely remember learning about some Gordon dude in primary school... I guess it's the same one you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharon_David_Gordon

I just love teaching Israelis about Zionist history and ideology.

[Dinner]

What's wrong with the videos is it requires a low density settlement pattern where there is room for sustainable forestry, having most food organically produced locally, etc... In short it sounds kind of like the self sufficient communion concepts of the 19th century. They just didn't work that well and they certainly don't work as well as our current system.

[Spiffor]

According to wiki, this is an inspiring example of permaculture.

[Dinner]

Not very inspiring.

[Spiffor]

The most inspiring thing, IMO, is that it shows human ingenuity when facing a crisis. Kudos to that

[ZEE]

im waiting for Narz to come back...
you all were so mean to him
cookies for Narz...
piece

[Narz]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

it's stock clueless-environmentalist fluff. There was absolutely nothing of substance in the part I quoted.

I assume you didn't watch the videos.

Originally posted by Spiffor
The most inspiring thing, IMO, is that it shows human ingenuity when facing a crisis. Kudos to that

Originally posted by Oerdin
What's wrong with the videos is it requires a low density settlement pattern where there is room for sustainable forestry, having most food organically produced locally, etc...

God forbid we abandon suburban sprawl!

Anyway, you're wrong about that (no offense). Anyone with even a quarter acre and a small back yard can start growing their own food.

Check out This Video (includes a cute girl with big breasts)

Originally posted by Oerdin
In short it sounds kind of like the self sufficient communion concepts of the 19th century. They just didn't work that well and they certainly don't work as well as our current system.

Our current system is horribly polluting and destroying the topsoil, not to mention bio-diversity. Our current system is causing climate change. Our current system is creating desertification, deforestation and is failing much of the planet. It's easy to say it's working from the unique perspective of someone who is (temporarily) benefiting from it. Our current system sucks. Like a pirate looting and raping his way thru a prosperous city it seems like his methods are producing tons of wealth but (assuming he doesn't get caught) eventually his non-sustainable methods of pillaging maximum wealth will fail because he is giving nothing back.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by AAHZ
poor Narz

Originally posted by AAHZ
im waiting for Narz to come back...
you all were so mean to him
cookies for Narz...
piece

It's all good AAHZ. When you're on the cutting edge you have to expect to be assaulted from all sides. Look at Galileo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Narz

Anyway, you're wrong about that (no offense). Anyone with even a quarter acre and a small back yard can start growing their own food.

A. That IS suburban sprawl, its much lower than metropolitan densities in most parts of the world.

B. You can grow SOME of your own food on that, but not all of it for a familyof 3 or 4 or more. Much less any other needs. So you still have to work at a job, which means you dont have much labor time left for the "farm" esp if you are using a labor intensive method of farming.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Narz
God forbid we abandon suburban sprawl!

Over here (Paris), environmentalists oppose the construction of more individual houses, and want more population density close to the centre. And Paris already has a fairly big density (my hometown, right next to inner-Paris, has more than 9000 inhabitants/km²).

If all Parisians were to have a house and a garden, an immense area would be covered by what would effectively be suburban sprawl.

[Narz]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
B. You can grow SOME of your own food on that, but not all of it for a familyof 3 or 4 or more.

Probably not all but every bit helps.

Much less any other needs. So you still have to work at a job, which means you dont have much labor time left for the "farm" esp if you are using a labor intensive method of farming.

Permaculture is very un-labor intensive (beyond the initial setup). One of the beautiful things about it is that it's designed to be self-sustaining. That's what I love about Bill, he's very unashamedly lazy (and yet passionate about what's he's doing).

[lord of the mark]

Here in the USA, some folks use the word "sprawl" for the movement of offices, and higher density residential development to the suburbs.

Which sort of is alright, cause such things, as theyre typically cited, do cause all the problems associated with sprawl, and so "antisprawl" planner types typically use the word that way as well. OTOH it can lead to some folks associating sprawl with increasing densities in general, and not understanding that traditional USA low density suburban development is "sprawl".

To some extent "sprawl" here means "any development I dont like"

Of course 1/4 acre properties arent sprawl, if they are not metropolitan, and are simply subsistence agricultural properties. Of course outside of a few places in China, that means starvation (although maybe the guys in the OP are trying to show how 3rd worldies can live on 1/4 of an acre and NOT starve - i dont know, i dont check out videos here)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Narz

Probably not all but every bit helps.

Well, hell, if I get time this weekend, I will probably plant some veggies in the back yard, maybe carrots, lettuce, something like that, and some herbs, probably basil, in the front. I will use no fertilizer or machinery, and rely on rainfall, etc.

[Narz]