YouTube censoring a video which only quotes the Quran

[Robert]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Indeed, He just demands his people to genocide the population inhabiting the Holy Land, and He punishes his people when they're tricked into not doing so.

He doesn't tell us to do that now.
The stories you describe above (about which is more to say, but I'll refrain from doing now since we've been there a 1000 times before) are in the Bible as an account of history. Not as an order for the future.

Do you see the difference?
The Quran has a mission for all muslims to spread their faith, if needed with violence.
The Bible has a mission for all christians, to spread their faith, but never by force or violence, christians are even told to never use violence.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by CyberShy
christians are even told to never use violence.

Too bad they didn't listen.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The Quran has a mission for all muslims to spread their faith, if needed with violence.

Have you read the Quran?

2:190-193:
"You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors."

The Bible has a mission for all christians, to spread their faith, but never by force or violence, christians are even told to never use violence.

Do you realize that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims?

-------------------

In the end people pick and choose what they want to live their lives by, and ignore the rest.

[Kuciwalker]

Wow CyberShy, you're an ignorant tool about your own religion too.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Wow CyberShy, you're an ignorant tool about your own religion too.

That's pretty much a prerequisite for being both religious and sane.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CyberShy


He doesn't tell us to do that now.
The stories you describe above (about which is more to say, but I'll refrain from doing now since we've been there a 1000 times before) are in the Bible as an account of history. Not as an order for the future.

Do you see the difference?
The Quran has a mission for all muslims to spread their faith, if needed with violence.
The Bible has a mission for all christians, to spread their faith, but never by force or violence, christians are even told to never use violence.

I'm trying to explain to you. By suing selective and out-of-context quoting, I could give the impression that Christianty is bloodthirsty and savage. Only a person who has a clue about Christianty would know my selective quoting is pure bull****.

I'm in a hurry, and can't do it well, but here are some quotes that "show" how horrible the Christian God is:

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die;" Deuteronomy 22:23-24

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [...] thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die" Deuteronomy 13:6, 13:9-10

Things like that.

[sarcasm, unfortunately some people are serious about it]See? Anybody with half a brain, upon reading thiese quotes, know unmistakenly that Christians are bloodthirsty savages, because their God orders it [/sarcasm]

[Robert]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Too bad they didn't listen.

Absolutely!
I'm sorry and ashamed for all the wrongs we, christians, have done in the name of God.

Have you read the Quran?

Partly. I own one and once in a while I read through it.

And yes, the Quran has peaceful quotes.
There's a difference between the 'earlier' Quran and the 'later' Quran. Later in his life Muhammed became more of a warmonger and started to spread his faith by the sword.

I do not deny the good things and the peaceful texts in the Quran. Like the Islam has many good things.
But the Islam also has a very warmongering side.

Do you realize that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims?

Isa, son of Mirjam.
In his stead Judas died on the cross, not Jesus.
Isa will return in the end of time, not Muhammed.

I have had some courses about Islam. (I'm studying theology)

Wow CyberShy, you're an ignorant tool about your own religion too.

Sure. That's why I'm studying theology. There's always more to learn.
So far I must say that compared to your knowledge my knowledge is huge. Your knowledge is more the usual "I read some internet sites on christianity with a huge bias against christianity" knowledge.

That's pretty much a prerequisite for being both religious and sane.

Thanks for calling me sane

I'm trying to explain to you. By suing selective and out-of-context quoting, I could give the impression that Christianty is bloodthirsty and savage. Only a person who has a clue about Christianty would know my selective quoting is pure bull****.

That's true, with selective quoting, out of context quoting, partially quoting, one can give a view that doesn't belong to a religon / book / movie, etc.
And yes, that's oftenly being done to the Islam and the Quran.

My point is though that the Islam still has a violent side, even if you quote the Quran right.
Muhammed was a warlord. If people follow Muhammed, it's not weird that they use the sword.

Jesus was not a warlord. Christians (christian, named after Christ, Jesus Christ) was maybe the most peaceful man ever recorded. He was the inspirator to Ghandi, the other peaceful man.

That's a huge difference between Islam and Christianity. Their founders are so different.
Therefor Islam can't be compared to christianity, like: "Christians needed time to become peaceful, so will Muslims need time to become peaceful"

Obviously there are many peaceful muslims! But the core of their faith is still to spread their faith by the sword. The fact that they don't do that doesn't change that.

Like there are violent christians! But the core to the christian faith is love, don't use violence. The fact that christians do use violence doesn't change that.

Another thing is interpretation of the Bible/Quran.
Christians are free to interpret the Bible. Paul even says that it's possible to disagree over several subjects. The Bible is not written by God directly, but at most inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Quran is as divine as Allah himself. The words of the Quran aren't supposed to be inspired.

Christians are supposed to obey the law and the 'emperor'. Both Jesus and Peter say that. (that some christians don't do that doesn't change that!)
Islam is a political faith by itself. There's nothing in the Quran that tells its followers to obey the emperor, even if he's not a muslim.

I'm not saying that one faith is better then the other faith, these are just facts. That Muhammed was a warlord is a fact, ie.

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die;" Deuteronomy 22:23-24

I can see that that's evil to our morals. Fortunately this is not a christian law but a Jewish law, given in a certain context.

Things like that.

I see your point. One can misquote every text.
My point is that you can quote the Quran right and tell about Muhammeds life right, and then it still shows that Islam uses force to spread it's faith.

One can not quote the Bible right and show that Christians are supposed to spread their faith by force.

I dare everyone here to post a part of the Bible in which christians are told to use force / violence / whatever.

[Kuciwalker]

My point is that you can quote the Quran right and tell about Muhammeds life right, and then it still shows that Islam uses force to spread it's faith.

[Robert]

Excuse me, do you deny that Muhammed was a warlord?

[Aeson]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Partly. I own one and once in a while I read through it.

Please quote the parts which you think justify wars of aggression.

The verses I quoted are the "usual suspects". All you have to do is strip out the context (against agressors) and you get the quotes that appear in this video for instance!

There's a difference between the 'earlier' Quran and the 'later' Quran.

Quotes please. I know you're a great scholar and all, having read parts of the Quran... but we still require some evidence of your claims.

Later in his life Muhammed became more of a warmonger and started to spread his faith by the sword.

You should stick to "what it says" unless you want to have to defend the Bible against "what atrocities it's been used to justify" as well...

But the core of their faith is still to spread their faith by the sword. The fact that they don't do that doesn't change that.

Like there are violent christians! But the core to the christian faith is love, don't use violence. The fact that christians do use violence doesn't change that.

This is ignorant. A person's faith is based on their own interpretation. People using the same text (Bible or Quran) as a foundation come to wildly different conclusions in that regard. The core of the faith of someone who believes they are told to be peaceful... is peace.

You missed the whole point about Jesus I'm afraid. Your assessment of Christianity is based on his teachings. (You know, the "nice" stuff in the Bible.) Yet you deny that they are Muslim teachings as well. The Quran refutes you:

"We believe in God and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was entrusted to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered." - 3:84

I'm not saying that one faith is better then the other faith, these are just facts.

Come on, first try at least one quote from the Quran to back up your statements before calling them "facts"...

One can not quote the Bible right and show that Christians are supposed to spread their faith by force.
...
I dare everyone here to post a part of the Bible in which christians are told to use force / violence / whatever.

I'll just let you refute yourself here...

"Another thing is interpretation of the Bible/Quran.
Christians are free to interpret the Bible. Paul even says that it's possible to disagree over several subjects. The Bible is not written by God directly, but at most inspired by the Holy Spirit."

Leaving it up to interpretation can be a dangerous thing. The Bible has been (and is still) used to justify a great many horrific acts.

[Robert]

I'll include the context:

004.083
YUSUFALI: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.
PICKTHAL: And if any tidings, whether of safety or fear, come unto them, they noise it abroad, whereas if they had referred it to the messenger and to such of them as are in authority, those among them who are able to think out the matter would have known it. If it had not been for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy ye would have followed Satan, save a few (of you).
SHAKIR: And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few

004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers.Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.

008.059
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
PICKTHAL: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[q]009.028
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

009.029
YUSUFALI:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[/b]

Just to quote a few.

[Arrian]

Far be it for me to defend any religion, but at least some of that appears to be orders given to Muhammed. Wouldn't that qualify under this excuse of yours?

He doesn't tell us to do that now.
The stories you describe above (about which is more to say, but I'll refrain from doing now since we've been there a 1000 times before) are in the Bible as an account of history. Not as an order for the future.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I'll include the context:

You forgot the context. (Hint: it's not just the previous verse that defines context.)

004.083
004.084

These "pagans" are a specific group in Mecca who had been waging war against Muslims in Medina ~620AD. It still holds to the "aggress not" ideal.

008.059
008.060

All you need for this one is the next verse:

"If they incline to peace, make peace with them, and put your trust in God." 8:61

009.004
009.005
009.028
009.029

Same group of "pagans". (Mecca)

------------------

These verses fall under that umbrella you are using to defend Bible verses with. They apply to a specific instance, and are not meant as commandments to later generations. (Though admittedly there are even Muslims who "forget" that if it serves their purpose. Just as there are Christians that "forget" the law of Moses was fullfilled with Christ's sacrifice.)

[Robert]

Far be it for me to defend any religion, but at least some of that appears to be orders given to Muhammed. Wouldn't that qualify under this excuse of yours?

Well, that's a matter of interpretation.
We, christians, say that the orders given to the disciples are for all christians, in example. I admit that's a matter of interpretation, and I would say that both those who agree and who disagree have a valid interpretation.

There's a difference however between a story that's been told, in which someone gets an order, and a letter or a public saying in which someone gets an order.

The massacres in the Old Testament are clearly given in a story to the people who act in that story. They're not given to the listeners.
The grand majority of all christians worldwide agrees with that.

Not to mention that the bloody stories in the OT have an ending. The killing ends, and that's a clear indicator that the order ended.
The orders Muhammed gets do clearly not come an end in the story/ Quran, and one could easily claim that the order still didn't come to an end.

You forgot the context. (Hint: it's not just the previous verse that defines context.)

You're right.
And you're wrong.

You're right that there's more to say.
But you're wrong, because the casual reader, and even the serious reader will not be able to grab that context if he has no other sources then the Quran.

These "pagans" are a specific group in Mecca who had been waging war against Muslims in Medina ~620AD. It still holds to the "aggress not" ideal.

I don't think that it matters if it's just a specific group or if it's about all 'pagans'.

All you need for this one is the next verse:

"If they incline to peace, make peace with them, and put your trust in God." 8:61

Wage war to them till they incline to peace is a very different message then "Turn the other cheek".

And there's more, much more. I just quoted the first 4 I found.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by CyberShy
But you're wrong, because the casual reader, and even the serious reader will not be able to grab that context if he has no other sources then the Quran.

I'm just a casual reader. 5 minutes on Google will give you more than you need to know about just about anything. It's not that hard to look into stuff. You're the "theologian", finding this sort of context should be something you... um... do?

I think what you mean to say is, "People who don't think for themselves are going to come to the wrong conclusion." Because you know... it's not like anyone's ever read the Bible and come to a different conclusion about what it's saying...

I don't think that it matters if it's just a specific group or if it's about all 'pagans'.

Ah, so it doesn't matter that when God told Moses to slay all the idol worshippers, that we differentiate between those specific idol worshippers, or any idol worshippers at any time?

Wage war to them till they incline to peace is a very different message then "Turn the other cheek".

There's no argument that the Koran (and Old Testament) are much more "eye for an eye" type stuff. But that wasn't what you were trying to prove. (And I'm not aware of any Christian nation* which has "turned the other cheek" in a war instigated against them. So it's hardly a just comparison.)

*There's actually one in the Book of Mormon, but it's hardly a story that's deemed part of scripture by most Christians.

And there's more, much more. I just quoted the first 4 I found.

Which means you went to one of those "Christians = Good, Muslim = Bad" sites and copy and pasted their ready-made misrepresentations without looking up the context? And you consider yourself "studying" theology?