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What-If: A man, a plan, a canal - Nicaragua?

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  • What-If: A man, a plan, a canal - Nicaragua?

    lets try a what if thats A. historical, and not taken from yesterdays headlines and B. Really could have happened, and made a huge difference.


    I just finished reading "A Path between the Seas" by David McCullough.

    The Nicaraguan canal had been the preferred route to US policy makers for decades. The railroads preferred Panama, AFAICT because being farther from New Orleans, it was considered less of a threat to trans cont rail traffic, whereas Panama with a shorter crossing would be more oriented towards usage by the navy, and by foreign shippers going to East Asia. Oh, and Bunau-Varrilla (sp?) a French guy with ties to the old De Lesseps attempt, was lobbying pretty hard for the Panama route, and had enlisted Cromwell, of Wall Street law firm Sullivan and Cromwell, to lobby for it. Cromwell was also closely connected to railroad interests.

    Lets say, BV and Cromwell are hit by a street car while crossing Broadway in NYC. If thats not enough, lets make the railroads a shade more apathetic - lets give them a labor action to distract them maybe. I suppose I could come up with something that connects these into one POD, but what the hell, this isnt SHWI, you guys wont quibble, so lets just say both happen. And lets make the Southern Dems who were the firmest supporters of a Nicaraguan canal, a little more persuasive.

    TR, IIUC, was willing to follow the congress on preferred route, he just wanted to make sure the damn thing got built.

    So congress passes it. It should be much easier negotiating a treaty with Nic than with Colombia, Nic isnt so divided politically, access is easier, lots of traditional US influence on a smaller and closer country.

    No French company to buy out. No benefit of the French digging, but thats probably offset by an easier route, and a healthier environment (Panama was still fairly unhealthy even after Yellow Fever was tamed - Malaria was still a big killer - its just that most of the deaths were among the black workers, not the white engineers)

    But most importantly, the US wont be seen in Latin America has having trod on the sovereignty of a Latin Am nation (which we did by going a tad over the line in supporting the Panamanian rebels at a time when they didnt yet really have de facto independence)

    Will this substantially reduce US "badboy" points in Latin America?

    Canal probably is just as useful, for the most part.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

  • #2
    GWB doesn't get reelected.

    On a more serious note: would this not have meant the suppression of Nicaragua? Panama was a US vassal for the time after 1914 and so would Nic have been. So why would it change Latin American "public" opinion (oh the mass society).

    2. you use way too many acronyms. I don't know what half of them mean.

    3. why is this question interesting to you? it wouldn't have changed anything as far as I can tell now.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ecthy
      GWB doesn't get reelected.

      On a more serious note: would this not have meant the suppression of Nicaragua? Panama was a US vassal for the time after 1914 and so would Nic have been. So why would it change Latin American "public" opinion (oh the mass society).

      2. you use way too many acronyms. I don't know what half of them mean.

      3. why is this question interesting to you? it wouldn't have changed anything as far as I can tell now.
      acronyms

      AFAICT = As far as I can tell

      IIUC = If I understand correctly

      TR = Theodore Roosevelt

      Those are all general.

      Alternative history ones

      POD = Point of Departure
      SHWI = Soc.history.what-if
      OTL = Original Time Line


      Now, to the substance of your question


      Nicaragua was under heavy US influence in OTL. While it might have been even more so in this time line, I dont think it was really US influence over Panama that was the issue. It was HOW Panama became independent.

      A group of Panamanian leaders in Panama City declared independence. Colombia landed troops on the opposite coast. The Panama RR, which was owned and operated by US businessmen, refused to let the Colombian troops use it to get to Panama City, under the strong urging of a local US Navy commander. Now the US justified this by a clause in the treaty under whcih the Panama RR had been built, that gave the US the right to protect it. But that had really been written to give the US the right to protect the RR from a foreign (IE not US OR Colombian) attack, not to keep Colombian troops from using it. The delay in moving the Colombian troops over the rail line, enabled the rebels to get de facto control of Panama City, after which the US promptly recognized them, and sent gun boats to stop Colombia reconquering Panama.

      IIUC it was seen as aggression, not only in Colombia, but in at least some other parts of Latin America.
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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      • #4
        Fine but Latin America stayed the US backyard basically until our time. So if the perception of aggression is even lower, what would change?

        Maybe a few revolutionary movements in Latin America would attract less popular support. Cuba? Doubtful it'd have that much of an effect.

        I only just realized you're talking strictly from an internal American point of view. Since no part of the world outside of the Americas is concerned, the entire problem is really hard to grasp for anyone non-American.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ecthy


          I only just realized you're talking strictly from an internal American point of view. Since no part of the world outside of the Americas is concerned, the entire problem is really hard to grasp for anyone non-American.
          Actually the British had shown interest in a canal across the area too. There is also an English language presence in the Bluefields/Mosquito Coast area of Nicaragua, which itself is not too distant from Belize/British Honduras.

          The U.S. and Great Britain had a contretemps over Venezuelan boundary claims with regards British Guiana near the end of the 19th Century too.

          And of course the U.S. (in our timeline) has been a regular visitor to Nicaragua over the years, either with government forces or U.S. sponsored forces.

          As a side note, Lake Nicaragua has freshwater sharks.

          Torn from the headlines of 1896:

          Why the Nicaragua Canal Will Never be Made

          Review of Reviews, 13 (1896), 321.
          Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

          ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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          • #6
            Originally posted by molly bloom


            Actually the British had shown interest in a canal across the area too. There is also an English language presence in the Bluefields/Mosquito Coast area of Nicaragua, which itself is not too distant from Belize/British Honduras.
            Did you know that most of the workers on the Panama Canal (OTL) were blacks from the British West Indies, mainly Barbados?
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What-If: A man, a plan, a canal - Nicaragua?

              Originally posted by lord of the mark

              But most importantly, the US wont be seen in Latin America has having trod on the sovereignty of a Latin Am nation (which we did by going a tad over the line in supporting the Panamanian rebels at a time when they didnt yet really have de facto independence)

              Will this substantially reduce US "badboy" points in Latin America?
              You've trodden on the sovereignty of so many Latin American nations that Panama didn't really matter...




              Teh Evil United Fruit Company Empire!
              Last edited by ElTigre; May 1, 2007, 11:39.

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              • #8
                Re: Re: What-If: A man, a plan, a canal - Nicaragua?

                Originally posted by ElTigre


                You've trodden on the sovereignty of so many Latin American nations that Panama didn't really matter...




                Teh Evil United Fruit Company Empire!
                The list you provided includes lots of items, some of which are hardly violations of Latin Am soveriegnty (the Spanish American War, really now)
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                • #9
                  Still, it is an impressive list, and I doubt most items on it made you more popular in Latin America.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    LOTM, while US intervention in the Cuban war might fit well into the ideology of your country, it might still seen as meddling into othr countries' affairs by others. Especially by the Spanish

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lord of the mark


                      Did you know that most of the workers on the Panama Canal (OTL) were blacks from the British West Indies, mainly Barbados?
                      Indeed. Mary Seacole (of Crimea fame) also worked in Panama.

                      Ever restless, Mary traveled to Panama to visit her brother and opened a boarding house in Cruces. Panama was in a state of upheaval at the time and sanitary conditions were extremely bad. That, combined with the hot, humid weather, made Panama a breeding ground for all types of tropical diseases. Soon after Seacole's arrival, cholera broke out in Cruces. There was no doctor but the residents were reluctant to accept her help at first because she was black and she was a woman. However, they were soon forced to seek her aid. She worked night and day until the crisis was over and was credited with saving many lives. She said the disease was contagious but that wasn't the usual belief for quite awhile. She also felt that cleanliness, fresh air, and good food were important even though those ideas weren't commonly accepted. She was very observant and wanted to know the mechanisms involved in cholera. Finally, she did her one and only autopsy on a child who had died of cholera because she wanted to see what was going on inside the body of victims. She received much acclaim and praise for her work in Cruces. Americans living in Panama called her an angel of mercy, but some of the Americans provoked her to wrath because of their racist remarks and bad attitudes about Blacks. While in Cruces, she made a statement that illustrates the driving force in her life: 'And wherever the need arises — on whatever distant shore — - I ask no higher or greater privilege than to minister to it' (Alexander, 1984, p. 78).

                      She moved on to Cuba and was so effective in caring for their cholera victims that she became known as 'the yellow woman from Jamaica with the cholera medicine.' Mrs. Seacole moved back to Kingston and was there in 1853 when a severe yellow fever epidemic struck Jamaica. Once again she worked tirelessly in treating the sick.
                      Attached Files
                      Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                      ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                      • #12
                        It would have been less bad, because a Country wouldnt have been mutilated
                        I need a foot massage

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                        • #13
                          how can you discuss the effects of a change in a variable without modeling this problem mathematically?

                          since this is not possible, case CLOSED.
                          "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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