Committing the mentally ill (homeless, VaTech, etc.)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

As a result of Crouse's exam, Judge Paul Barnett concluded that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but that an involuntary hospitalization was deemed "unsuitable." Instead, Barnett recommended that outpatient treatment was warranted.

this was after hed already been commited then. and after an exam.

are you privy to the results of that exam? Do you know why an involuntary hospitalization was deemed unsuitable? Do you realize that involuntary hospitilizations can make suicidal depressives worse in some instances?

Of course you have what neither Crouse not Barnett had, 20-20 hindsight.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
What's wrong with making fun of people...better to have a small hit in high school rather than not be able to take real criticism in college and the job world.

You can always rely on Apoc to be a bully apologist

[Ecthy]

He's one of the most simple persons in the OT.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Of course you have what neither Crouse not Barnett had, 20-20 hindsight.

What does a person need to do in your opinion to be involuntarially committed if stalking, arson, being declared an imminent threat and incpable of volunteering for treatment aren't enough in your opinion? Kill someone?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
What does a person need to do in your opinion to be involuntarially committed if stalking, arson, being declared an imminent threat and incpable of volunteering for treatment aren't enough in your opinion? Kill someone?

arson is a crime. It warrants imprisonment. If the invididual was found not guilty by reason of insanity, they would of course be committed. Ditto for stalking in violation of a court order.

However assuming that for whatever reason those incidents were not brought to trial, the question would be the persons likelihood of killing themselves at the time of the examination. We do not commit people to involuntary psych care in this country to prevent them fom stalking, AFAIK. We do so when we think they are a threat to themselves or others. Cho was taken in because it was thought he was a threat to commit suicide. Given that suicide is hundreds of times more common than deranged homicides, thats the logical thing to look for, and if the individual doesnt appear in danger of suicide, then they shouldnt be commited. Did he appear aas he a suicide risk at the time to a qualified shrink? I dont know. I havent seen the results of the exam. Have you?

[DanS]

Interesting chart from an interesting paper...

US institutionalization rate & prison rate

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=970341&download=yes

[DanS]

And another...

[Ecthy]

Income equality in the US has also been decreasing since the 60s. Nice selective statistics

[Flubber]

People have focused in this thread on the VA issue and potential criminality but the article also talks about the homeless problem.

A significant portion of the Canadian homelss are people that would have been institutionalized 20-30 years ago. They can meet a very basic test of mental competence but have very limited abilities to reason. Now a lot of them are on the street and any programs that require their participation have very every limited success.

Leave aside the dangerous for a moment. What as a society should we be doing for the people that have a very limited ability to care for themselves? My fear is that our focus on their "rights" to "freedom", we have done many of them a great disservice. I don't know the answers . .. what do you do for people that reject most forms of help (due to paranoia, substance abuse or simply limited mental faculties) but exist in an impoverished state whithin an city willing to help them?

[Impaler[WrG]]

OMG!! I completely agree with Ned!!

Lets be clear hear WE ARE INSTITUTIONALIZING most of the severely mentally ill, the problems are that were using the Prison system as the institution of choice and were waiting until after they have committed crimes to do so.

All the people wining about 'rights' and 'freedom' have no ground to stand on because these prisons are every bit as bad as the one-flew-over-the-cockoses-nest institution they fear. The present situation IS the worst case scenario. We need to resuscitate mental institutions as a separate institution from the Prisons and move the mentally ill from the criminal justice system into their own mental health care system designed exclusively for them.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Ahem. Is it not considered normal anymore to have thoughts of violent actions as long as you keep them momentary thoughts?

I could kill him for writing that. - Now a symptome of some schizophrenic disorder?

Actually Ecthy psychological studies show that isn't normal. You need help fast. Which German authorities should I contact?

[Ecthy]

I'm in Spain. These people attack each other violently on the street on drinking nights, with all possible results.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DanS
And another...

There's something wrong with your second chart. IIRC the high total homicide rate of the 1920s-30s dropped during and after WW2 until the early 1960s when it began to sharply rise until peaking at around 20,000 in the late 1980s, then declined by the mid part of the decade to about 15,000. It's risen a little bit since.

BTW, Governor Kaine just signed a law which will prevent mentally ill people from buying guns in Virginia.

However in the past Virginia has allowed private individuals selling weapons at gun shows exemption from many of the state's laws governing the sales of firearms. This loophole makes the Commonwealth a favorite shopping ground for criminals from northern states. I'm not sure if the new law covers sales at gun shows.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Ecthy
I'm in Spain. These people attack each other violently on the street on drinking nights, with all possible results.

Sounds like Spain and Romford have a lot in common

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthy
I'm in Spain. These people attack each other violently on the street on drinking nights, with all possible results.

OK. we'll contact the Spanish authorities.