An Ode to Chirac

[Colon™]

Oncle Boris: What is it that makes a case before the labour tribunal so expensive and difficult as you claim?

And no, need to provide a written and legally valid reason to dismiss an employee isn't on its own going to suffocate the labour market, though it's pretty symptomatic of the administrative burden imposed on French employers. But if you add that to the generous severance payments, the 35-hours week, the numerous collective bargaining agreements enforced by law, high social security contributions etc, and you do have a problem. I'm aware employers in a lot of case find ways around overly onerous labour regulations, such as using temp-contracts, but in each of those cases the solution is second-best and less desirable to a liberalised continuous employment regime. Using flexible temp-contracts for instance, adds a lot of costs of finding and training new employees.

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Yes. But first, I insist that "no-go zones" is an exaggerated (though convenient) word: in those "no go zones", you still find buses, schools, city-backed associations, social workers etc. We're far from Groznyi, fortunately.

I don't think the name is too exaggerated for areas in which the police does not dare the venture.

[Ned]

Chirac is the most corrupt leader of a Western democracy I have ever known. While he did lead the opposition to the Iraq war, whether he did so out of idealism or his "ties" to Saddam Hussein is left to the individual to judge.

The man deserves minimal respect, IMHO.

But that does not say that his presidency was not a success even so. He is something like Bill Clinton in that.

[dannubis]

hey ned, do you know we've found your home planet ?

[Ned]

dan, saw the thread and just posted on it. Thanks!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Colon™
I don't think the name is too exaggerated for areas in which the police does not dare the venture.

There are only a handful of areas where the police really doesn't dare to venture, or only with overwhelming force: the basements, basically.

Now, of course, police coverage is different in a difficult cité and in a quiet neighbourhood. In a cité, you won't find too many policemen on the beat having a dissuasive presence. They mostly come on-call, or at least they come with a specific aim in mind.

But the police definitely goes there, and is quite a PITA to the local youth. The police wouldn't be nearly as resented if it actually didn't go in the cités.

[Adam Smith]

re: French Labor Laws

Here's how PBS (essentially our BBC; polar opposite of FoxNews) characterized French Labor Laws:

The labor situation in France is quite different than in the United States. French labor laws are designed to protect the worker and provide job security. The primary feature is the contract of indeterminate duration - or CDI.

Under the CDI, workers are essentially guaranteed a job for life. Although there is a probation period, it is only six weeks. After that, it is very difficult for employers to fire a worker.

Workers can only be fired if companies prove a "serious" fault. If the workers object, they can take the issue to court, where the law requires the court to rule in the favor of the employee whenever there is reasonable doubt.

Court cases are lengthy and expensive, lasting an average of 12 months and costing 12-24 months of salary.

Alexis Debat, a consultant working at George Washington University, said the labor laws are a drag on France's economy.

"The system is very inflexible, and an employer has to think twice before hiring someone because he knows that this person will have to remain in his or her job regardless of the economic situation, regardless of whether the business situation is good or bad," she told the NewsHour.

"And in many cases, this dilemma is resolved by the employer making the decision not to create a job."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june06/france_03-27.html

edit:
Similarly, from the International Hearld Tribune:

The traditional French CDI, which still accounts for almost 90 percent of employment contracts, has an average probation period of 1.5 months, compared with 6 months in Germany, 9 to 12 months in Denmark and one year in Britain. After that, dismissals can cost employers 12 to 24 months of salary. Disputes take a year on average and are judged by employment tribunals, which must rule in favor of the employee where there is reasonable doubt.

Roubaud knows that firsthand. In his 33 years as head of Simonet, he said, he has fired only four people. Twice, the dispute involved years of legal wrangling; in one case the costs matched his company's annual profit.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/17/business/wblabor.php

I would appreciate comments from our French or other knowledgable posters about the accuracy or inaccuracy of this characterization. Supporting sources would be especially appreciated.

[DAVOUT]

In my 45 years career, I have been CEO for 29 years. The following comments do not reflect opinions but practical experience.

Under the CDI, workers are essentially guaranteed a job for life. Although there is a probation period, it is only six weeks. After that, it is very difficult for employers to fire a worker.

Civil servants “are essentially guaranteed a job for life”; this is not true for the workers of the competitive economy; the closing of factories after delocalization has resulted, and is still resulting, in dismissal of all workers; this is the most obvious example of jobs not guaranteed for life.

Workers can only be fired if companies prove a "serious" fault. If the workers object, they can take the issue to court, where the law requires the court to rule in the favor of the employee whenever there is reasonable doubt.

Workers can only be fired if companies prove a "serious" fault, or an economic cause, or a loss of physical capacity to do the job. I cant see how this could be a problem: I have always issued directives demanding to the management that anytime they want to fire an employee, they have to convince me first. And I never had legal problems with dismissals meeting this condition.

Court cases are lengthy and expensive, lasting an average of 12 months and costing 12-24 months of salary.

Court cases are lengthy, possibly, but I don’t care since the guy dismissed is out. Are the cases expensive? The “Conseil des Prudhommes” is the cheapest court, and the cost depends on your lawyer. Regarding the number of months of salary to be paid when the case is lost by the employer, the standard punitive condemnation is 6 months (for instance for a dismissal without motive).

The system is very inflexible, and an employer has to think twice before hiring someone

From a management point of view, I think that an employer has to think twice before hiring someone. Would you say that there are business decisions that do not require to think twice?

an average probation period of 1.5 months, compared with 6 months in Germany, 9 to 12 months in Denmark and one year in Britain

If we are talking of probation periods, I think there is no need of 6 months or more to ascertain that an employee is able to do the job.

Disputes take a year on average and are judged by employment tribunals, which must rule in favor of the employee where there is reasonable doubt.

An employment tribunal is made of judges elected by employees and judges elected by employers. I am not aware of cases where there was reasonable doubt; most cases are quite simple and clear.
There is no obligation to rule in favour of the employee. Interesting to know that a case is accepted by the court only after a conciliation meeting, which is an informal attempt to solve the case on mutual agreement. I have personally used this procedure successfully, although it is not strongly supported by the lawyers.

In his 33 years as head of Simonet, he said, he has fired only four people.

How many people he would have been willing to fire and he could not? Personally I have fired several tenths of workers for many different motives, including economic motives. And I have never kept on the payroll a guy not strictly respecting the conditions of his contract.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
- In 1965 in a small town at 60 km from Paris. Housing was needed mainly for immigrant workers, but not only, also for French nationals, including middle class workers (foreman and supervisors). There was plenty of land available (La Beauce) but it was decided to build 6 and 12 levels buildings. Quickly people started leaving the cité for individual houses, generally newly build. And with a reduced occupancy, the cite began deteriorating. Until it was partly destroyed and rehabilitated in the 1990. We now know that the error was architectural; life is more pleasant, comfortable and secure in an area made of individual houses; in addition, the argument of the cost does not hold if you take into consideration the additional costs of high buildings : lifts, security, and the deficit resulting from the reduced occupancy during the life of the building, and the pure loss recognized when a building is destroyed after only 30 years.

Fully agreed (except on the individual houses part: I live in a large apartments in low-rises like many of my town's inhabitants, and I prefer it over a banlieue pavillonnaire).

- I have often employed workers from North African origin. I have observed that they generally react badly to reproaches or even remarks, saying that I was racist in doing so. I always explained that all my employees were treated the same way, and that they all have to execute my orders. That was enough. I think that the word discrimination has been overused by people and organisation with a political agenda. This is particularly obvious when you hear that youths are discriminated because their rate of unemployment is higher than the one of experienced workers: there are times, areas and industries where the offer of job requiring no experience is smaller than the number of youths looking for a job.

You are right to nuance what I wrote previously: the job situation among the "visible minorities" isn't solely due to employer's racism, far from it. If it's the impression I gave in my post, I apologize.
Indeed, there's a serious problem with failure at school (which has many reasons, both coming from the young themselves, and coming from their general environment), which leaves many ghetto-dwellers in the unskilled labour market, especially males.

But the racial discrimination is quite real: there's a broad discrimination upon hiring, be it because the employer is a bigot, or because the customers are expected to be bigots. I remember when SOS racisme showed that the Alsacian branches of national banks rejected the candidacy of brown people outright, simply because they feared the customers wouldn't trust brown people to handle their money.

Within each branch, I guess racism weights differently. I expect it to be not too bad in office work, and pretty consequence-less in among the civil servants. But I'd expect it to be a potent force in factory and construction work (at least that's the most notable experience I had in construction). Unfortunately, many "visible minorities" remain unskilled labour and end up in the latter two.

[DAVOUT]

Within each branch, I guess racism weights differently. I expect it to be not too bad in office work, and pretty consequence-less in among the civil servants. But I'd expect it to be a potent force in factory and construction work (at least that's the most notable experience I had in construction). Unfortunately, many "visible minorities" remain unskilled labour and end up in the latter two.

Preference is not always racism. For instance, the availability of many jobs is not advertised, and most are not communicated to the ANPE. Job offers are often answered by applicants who have been informed by a parent or a friend working in the company. This can be a very effective introduction. This reduces the chances of all others, including all the whites and all the equally qualified.
I don’t want to generalize, but from what I see I have the feeling that the “visible minorities” have a visible majority in the construction work industry, asset that they have inherited from the Portuguese’s who themselves have inherited it from the Italians, only because those jobs are not much appreciated by the whites. This is another kind of preference which has nothing to do with racism.

[Colon™]

Adam Smith: it is interesting that the "anglo-saxon" media often neglect to mention the collective bargaining agreements, even though they're an essential element of labour markets in France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands... Those are typically legally binding across sectors or even across the country and stipulate much of the employees' working conditions

[Dinner]

Eventually I'd like to see Turkey in the EU though it still has a long way to go. There just isn't much in the way of Freedom of Religion in Turkey right now and it is illegal to open a church in Turkey without government licenses but a mosque can be opened at any time. That's just not up to the European standard.