The suppression of the Macedonian people shall not stand!

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by MarkG
that said, the main issue is not the name. it's the policies, official and semi-official of the fyrom state regarding historical and minority issues.

I agree entirely. The main issue is indeed the policies. I've read about the airport name change before, and it's stupid; not because there's necessarily anything wrong with naming an airport after Alexander, but because it was needlessly provocative and just generally bone-headed.

However, you've said yourself that the issue isn't really the name, but the policies - so wouldn't it make sense to take issue with the policies instead of with the name? Can't a culturally conscious Greek call the Macedonians by the name they want to call themselves by, and oppose the policies that they view as detrimental?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by varwnos
However it is very probable (if not absolutely certain) that the country will have an albanian majority in the near future.

up to the 35% atm (although albanian parties get around 20%)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I suppose it would be too obvious to state that the 'pro-Macedonian' position adopted by many posters here has nothing to do with solidarity for the Macedonian people, and everything to do with trolling MarkG.

What??

You're joking, right?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
However, you've said yourself that the issue isn't really the name, but the policies - so wouldn't it make sense to take issue with the policies instead of with the name?

i believe both are done by the greek side. that said, it's kind of obvious that the continuance of the use of the name is fueling fyromian nationalism....

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by MarkG
fyromians argue that this is silly, but ignore cases like small countries (luxemboug, monaco)

In those cases the country is the capital.

or ever large ones (brasil) where the name of the country is the same as that of it's capital...

In that case the capital was named after the country, not the other way around.

[notyoueither]

Canada should have a city named Washington that we can burn down every July 1. Either that or rampage into Washington State and burn down Redmond once.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by MarkG
in greece the country is referred to as "Skopia" (from the name of the capital, Skopje), and the people "Skopiani".

fyromians argue that this is silly, but ignore cases like small countries (luxemboug, monaco) or ever large ones (brasil) where the name of the country is the same as that of it's capital...

Athens Far better than "Greece" or the ugly "Hellas"

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by MarkG
i believe both are done by the greek side. that said, it's kind of obvious that the continuance of the use of the name is fueling fyromian nationalism....

I think you're confusing the symptom with the cause. The name is an expression of Macedonian nationalism, not the source or "fuel" of it. Greek insistence on this point is probably self-defeating in the long run, because the conflict itself fuels nationalist sentiment. Mutual agreement and respect helps diffuse these conflicts and makes the extremists and irredentists on both sides look strident and silly.

Nationalism in itself is not a "problem," it's just a way of organizing a larger, imagined community. Nationalism can certainly create problems, but nationalism doesn't itself preclude mutual recognition and respect. I am in complete agreement that Macedonian nationalists have done some objectionable things, including the whole airport issue. Recognizing Macedonia under its own constitutional name, however, seems like it would be a great step forward in resolving tensions and ultimately eroding the support for more extreme nationalists.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by MarkG
meanwhile, there is a long-standing greek minority in south albania(=north epirus), with local goverment and parliament representation, etc. but there are no great greece plans...

You just wait... those greeks can be pretty tricky folks, laying low for centuries just waiting for the perfect time to open up the door in the horse and JUMP OUT!

Err, anyway...

[_BuRjaCi_]

Greece should be renamed Athenia or Athelux. It's a small country after all, it shouldn't get the right to name itself!!

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Greek insistence on this point is probably self-defeating in the long run, because the conflict itself fuels nationalist sentiment.

why is it "self-defeating" for greece but not for fyrom?

Nationalism in itself is not a "problem," it's just a way of organizing a larger, imagined community.

i'm differentiating nationalism from patriotism...

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


I think you're confusing the symptom with the cause. The name is an expression of Macedonian nationalism, not the source or "fuel" of it. Greek insistence on this point is probably self-defeating in the long run, because the conflict itself fuels nationalist sentiment. Mutual agreement and respect helps diffuse these conflicts and makes the extremists and irredentists on both sides look strident and silly.

Nationalism in itself is not a "problem," it's just a way of organizing a larger, imagined community. Nationalism can certainly create problems, but nationalism doesn't itself preclude mutual recognition and respect. I am in complete agreement that Macedonian nationalists have done some objectionable things, including the whole airport issue. Recognizing Macedonia under its own constitutional name, however, seems like it would be a great step forward in resolving tensions and ultimately eroding the support for more extreme nationalists.

These are the Balkans you're talking about.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by MarkG
meanwhile, there is a long-standing greek minority in south albania(=north epirus), with local goverment and parliament representation, etc. but there are no great greece plans...

Albanian claims being silly as they are, Greeks are wrong as well. They consider all orthodox minority in southern Albania Greeks, while these are mostly Aromanians...

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by MarkG
why is it "self-defeating" for greece but not for fyrom?

Because it is Greece that is insisting that Macedonia be called something other than the name by which they call themselves. Like it or not, Greek insistence is the reason for the "name conflict." It is Greece that insists on "fyrom;" nobody would use it were it not for Greece. I am saying that Greek insistence is self-defeating for Greece in the long run, because the name conflict continues only because of Greece's objection.

i'm differentiating nationalism from patriotism...

Yeah, I know. So?

These are the Balkans you're talking about.

I'm well aware of that.

[Varwnos]

I do not think that the name is the worse of fyromian ( ) macedonia's problems. When the albanians become a majority you can expect that country to stop existing. And i doubt this will take long.
And i do not agree that a country can name itself anything it wants to. What if it has named itself Germany? Would that be accepted? What if northern Poland became an independent country, called itself Prussia, and started publishing books claiming that it is the successor of Prussia of old, which was never german?
Anyway, i agree that this thread is too much (sadly) about baiting MarkG. Just note that it is highly probable that FYR Macedonia will have to face a lot more real threats, than the albeit rather ill-planned greek stance on the name. In case you did not know it already had a civil war a couple years ago.