Another School Shooting (Virginia Tech)

[Kuciwalker]

Having an armed citizenry makes it a hell of a lot more difficult.

Not really.

[Arrian]

I don't trust the benevolence of government. I'm simply saying that owning a handgun isn't going to stop the big, bad government if the government turns all oppressive on us. First off, they've got Tanks, etc. Unless you want citizens to have ready access to anti-tank rockets, ground to air missiles, and various other heavy-duty military equipment, the government is still gonna roll over the "armed citizenry" easily. Second, democracy dies to thunderous applause or whatever that line is.

-Arrian

[Sandman]

What a ridiculous argument.

If you had an armed student body, you'd have more deaths from gunshots on campus EVEN IF the above scenario worked (crazed gunman gets taken down by armed students), because college kids + guns + beer = lots of accidents.

Well said Arrian.

Let's imagine another scenario. It's late, and a gang of students have been drinking or smoking dope. They're making a hellish noise, and an official orders them to shut up. But one of these students (the most drunk one) has had a problem with this official before, and would dearly love to teach him a lesson. Give him a fright. Show him who's boss.

Freeze frame: would you give a gun to this student?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Having an armed citizenry makes it a hell of a lot more difficult. You go ahead and trust in the beneficence of government, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Do you own a gun, or does it come with your KKK membership?

[Saras]

Originally posted by Arrian
I don't buy the "we need guns to protect us from the gummint" argument. As if a shotgun is going to stop the FBI, ATF, SWAT... or the Army.

-Arrian

Automatic weapons and RPG's might make it very costly and/ or impossible in longer term conflict. Counterinsurgency is tricky.

[Arrian]

Freeze frame: would you give a gun to this student?

And if you say "no" explain why you hate freedom.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Arrian
I don't trust the benevolence of government. I'm simply saying that owning a handgun isn't going to stop the big, bad government if the government turns all oppressive on us. First off, they've got Tanks, etc. Unless you want citizens to have ready access to anti-tank rockets, ground to air missiles, and various other heavy-duty military equipment, the government is still gonna roll over the "armed citizenry" easily. Second, democracy dies to thunderous applause or whatever that line is.

-Arrian

As Iraq shows an armed citizenry can resist even the most technological of foes. For one thing, bombs are quite distructive and can easily produced. For another, such defense doesn't have the goal of killing the invader or beating them on the field, rather it is to annoy and haraass the oppressor until he gives up.

An armed citizenry that fights pitched battles is stupid. An armed citizenry that behaves like those in Afganistan or Iraq (or like in many areas of europe during WW2) will in the end succeed or die.

Jon Miller

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by dannubis
So MtG, do you believe that a multitude of guns present on the campus could have avoided this ?

Possibly, with the downside over time of more acts of random stupidity by drunken frat boys, etc. Guns aren't the issue here, except to the gun-obsessed.

This guy bought his weapons weeks ago, and accumulated extra clips and ammo after purchasing the weapons. In other words, he likely planned to do something for some period of time - if guns hadn't been available, there are a lot of other ways of killing people - bombs, arson, gas, run into a crowd with an SUV - where there's a will, there's a way, and there's no shortage of commonly available materials and items which can be adapted to large scale lethal use.

The real issue, IMO, is how/why weren't there more forceful actions taken regarding his mental health status (involuntary commitment, expulsion from school, etc.), given what is emerging about his history. People occasionally took individual actions (roommates, prof, etc.), but he was never charged in the stalking stuff, and nobody connected all the different dots that suggested that this guy was a real nutcase.

Or is it maybe safe to say that

1. Idiots must not carry guns
2. You can not tell who is a possible idiot

So nobody should carry guns?

It's more moot than anything else.

1. There are well over 100 million guns (including mine, trigger-lock, in-slide laser sight and all) already out there.

2. Way over 99% of them are never used in the commission of a crime.

3. The bigger issue here isn't who is an "idiot" but better detection and management of those who demonstrate significant, escalating patterns of behavior that indicate diverting them into serious mental health assessment and treatment before they go off.

4. The media will have a field day with this for months, because Imus was a real bore of a story and everyone's sick of Iraq, plus shooting a bunch of people in one place at one time is more "spectacular" than one here, one there, or the greated number of people killed by tornados in any given year than are killed in school shootings.

And going further on that, the only companies that are allowed to produce guns or amunition are the ones that deliver to the armed forces ?

And going further, we don't have a socialist framework and world view that government has the absolute right to control what businesses engage in the production or distribution of legal commodities. Although we do go a bit down that road, in that firearm manufacturers, distributors and dealers are already subject to regulation to varying degrees by the government.

But hey, Glock and Walther, let's sue the Krauts and wannabe Krauts over this.

[Arrian]

In Iraq, said armed citizenry has a lot more than handguns. Most importantly, they have explosives, and lots of 'em. They have RPGs as well, IIRC.

Are you proposing that US citizens should have ready access to explosives and RPGs?

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

If you have ready access to handguns you hvae ready access to explosives. While RPGs are nice, they aren't required.

Jon Miller

[Saras]

And should there be a civil war in US, I could come up with at least 10 countries willing to secretly supply the rebels

[Arrian]

In a democratic republic such as ours, the best defense against tyranny doesn't involve weapons at all, IMO.

-Arrian

[Saras]

Well no doubt, but the second best defense is also nice to have in addition

[Arrian]

At what cost?

-Arrian

[Saras]

0,00 to RoW

Bad taste, I know.