Teh Creationist Thread

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Thats what they said about our origins... Call it myth, religion, or wackiness, but they said it, not me.

Nope, it's you (or rather, Sitchins) that's come up with this silly interpretation.

Clay mixed with the blood of the Anunaki and a creature roaming the Apsu. Accuse me of lying?

That's the Babylonian version. The much earlier Sumerian version doesn't involve any blood.

[Berzerker]

The flood stuff makes some sense. It seems possible that there could be a cultural memory of an actual event ~12k years ago.

According to Tlingit legend, the Flood was 14 K ago, that jives with the end of the last ice advance and the subsequent disappearance of a 1,000 mile wide land bridge connecting Alaska and Siberia. We do know of floods like the Scablands, Lake Agazzis, Lake Bonneville, etc flooding ~10-20 centuries after the last ice advance as glacial dams all over the world were breaking releasing torrents of fresh cold water.

Nope, it's you (or rather, Sitchins) that's come up with this silly interpretation.

I've read the original translations

That's the Babylonian version. The much earlier Sumerian version doesn't involve any blood.

Babylonians dont count as Mesopotamians? The AtraHasis dates back to the 18th century BC and we dont have much of the Sumerian stuff, their myths were adopted and sometimes modified by later peoples. But the Sumerian version does not contradict the AtraHasis

Mix the heart of the clay that is over the abyss,
The good and princely fashioners will thicken the clay

You wanna argue the authors of the AtraHasis got it wrong based on that? Obviously the clay was modified even in this Sumerian version. And if you're gonna accuse me of lying based on that, FU *******

[Berzerker]

The men of those days of yore [since man had not yet been fashioned, this must apply to the gods. Probably the lesser gods. Since the lesser gods did the work now done by man, they were literally the "men of yore".]

Knew not the eating of bread,
Knew not the wearing of clothes,
Ate herbs with their mouths like sheep,
Drank water from the furrows.
[snip]
The Anunnaki eat, they are unsated,
The Anunnaki drink, they are unsated,
For the holy sheepfold, the goodly,
Man was given the breadth of life.2"

A Sumerian description of "the lesser gods" before mankind was created, or a description of mankind before the gods intervention?

And mankind, Enki is giving instructions

"'When you have drenched [some translations use "mixed"] the core of the Apsu's fathering clay
Imma-en and Imma-shar [minor goddesses, also called fashioners] can make the fetus bigger,
and when you have put limbs upon it'"
[Enki then further instructs Ninmah, the mother goddess and eight more fashioners to help. He gives her a couple of last directions.]
"'O mother mine, when you have determined its mode of being
may Ninmah put together the birth chair
and when, without any male, you have built it up in it,
may you give birth to mankind!'
With out the sperm of males she gave birth to the offspring,
To the embryo of mankind.
When she [Nammu] had broadened its shoulders,
she made a hole in the head for the mouth
she [line damaged]
and enclosed its body in an amnion,
[two lines that are not understood]
Enki tied wool for swathing around it
and its heart rejoiced."
[The tale then continues with Enki and Ninmah getting drunk in celebration. Full of themselves they then create more humans. Since there is only the two of them, they create cripples, both physical and mental. This is probably an attempt to explain why there are cripples. Enki then makes a creature on his own. It is terribly deformed. Ninmah despairing says:]
"'The man, your handiwork,
is not a live man,
nor a dead man,
I can not support it!'4"

The creation of man required the work of at least twelve goddesses. They had to mix up the "fathering clay" of the Apsu. The Apsu is the underground fresh water, the water table, that was the home of Enki. Since the clay is called the fathering clay, it may have had some special properties that allowed it to produce life when joined with a woman's womb. The clay is then put over the fetus and shaped into the form of man, with limbs and a mouth being added. The tale then alludes to Ninmah putting the fetus/clay into her womb and then birthing man in a birth chair.

Immaculate conception?

[MrFun]

So the Earth is less than one million years old, even though dinosaurs have existed on Earth until about 65 million years ago, and hominids/humans have existed on Earth for three million years.

[SlowwHand]

What years? Whose years?

[Berzerker]

type DNA and clay into google, some weird stuff

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Babylonians dont count as Mesopotamians? The AtraHasis dates back to the 18th century BC and we dont have much of the Sumerian stuff, their myths were adopted and sometimes modified by later peoples. But the Sumerian version does not contradict the AtraHasis

Mix the heart of the clay that is over the abyss,
The good and princely fashioners will thicken the clay

You wanna argue the authors of the AtraHasis got it wrong based on that? Obviously the clay was modified even in this Sumerian version. And if you're gonna accuse me of lying based on that, FU *******

I'm not accusing you of lying, you obviously sincerely believe this stuff. But since the core of your superstition is that really old myths have nuggets of truth in them which somehow point to ancient astronauts being the creators of humanity, one would expect the really, really old Sumerian stuff to be 'better' than the later Babylonian stuff.

The lack of mentions of blood and killing is fairly glaring. You'd think that it would make it into at least some part of the Sumerian texts, since they liked talking about their creation myths.

The bits from the Cattle and Grain poem about the Annukaki being like animals doesn't really point to them being space travellers from Niburu, does it? Or were they so advanced, they'd forgotten how to wear clothes, make food or drink from cups?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
What years? Whose years?

The years that have been substantiated by proven dating techniques, such as radiocarbon dating, and other dating techniques that may have been discussed in this thread, as used by anthropologists, paleontologists, and archeologists.


But then, you're an uncivilized Texan, so you wouldn't understand how the scientific method works.


Margins of errors and mistakes does not invalidate the entire scientific method when formulating theories.

[b etor]

that's probably the best banana option ever

[Berzerker]

I'm not accusing you of lying, you obviously sincerely believe this stuff.

You said I left out the Sumerian version because it doesn't mention blood. I'm not even sure why I would lie by omission, the blood part is only relevant in that it implies a possibility of DNA etc, well so does the Sumerian myth. The important part of the myth is that "the gods" found a creature already in existence and were trying to modify it. As for believing it, I believe the possibility exists and I haven't found solid evidence to refute the theory. The evidence to support the theory is everywhere, so I cant ignore it.

But since the core of your superstition is that really old myths have nuggets of truth in them which somehow point to ancient astronauts being the creators of humanity, one would expect the really, really old Sumerian stuff to be 'better' than the later Babylonian stuff.

Ideally I want the oldest, but we dont have much from the Sumerians. Even the Creation myth is found in bits and pieces while the more recent myths give us more information. The AtraHasis and Enuma Elish are much more thorough than anything we have from the Sumerians.

The lack of mentions of blood and killing is fairly glaring.

Blood is implied, the human fetus is put in the womb of a goddess for gestation. Why do you think these two myths must be identical? It doesn't mean the Sumerians didn't have a similar myth, the Babylonians just made Marduk the hero as in the Enuma Elish.

You'd think that it would make it into at least some part of the Sumerian texts, since they liked talking about their creation myths.

We have far more stuff from the peoples who conquered the region than from the Sumerians. Why you find this so important is beyond me, you seem to think the Sumerian version negates Sitchen's theory.

The bits from the Cattle and Grain poem about the Annukaki being like animals doesn't really point to them being space travellers from Niburu, does it? Or were they so advanced, they'd forgotten how to wear clothes, make food or drink from cups?

The myth says "man" was living like that.

[DanQ]

Great banana video.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Molly Bloom, once again I repeat, you don't understand what this debate is about.

I read you clearly the first time you wrote it. It was no less arrogant and incorrect then.

If someone argues (as Obi Gyn did or appeared to) that the account of Creation as presented in the Bible has a literal, scientific basis, it is more than relevant to ask on what evidentiary proof this assertion rests.

And it shows that you have no clue.

Ah,the humble Christian.

So good to see someone who takes the teachings of the New Testament to heart.

Ignoring for a moment the scientific possibilities.

Only a 'moment' ?

Not a Genesis 'day' or a period of 100 000 years, or a vast epoch, or a trillion years...

I try to look at that story from a within perspective

As I recall, you just closed your eyes to the fact that Jesus manufactures a scourge and uses it to expel the money lenders.

How does one use a scourge ? By demonstrating, Boy Scout fashion, how to knot one and waving it merrily at the money lenders ?

Remember- this is supposed to be the Son of God, who heals the sick, transmutes water into wine, multiplies bread and fishes without the aid of a bakery or fishing net and boat, and recalls the dead to life.

Surely not beyond his miraculous matter transporting and transmuting abilities to whisk the money lenders, bodies and souls, out of the Temple precincts ?

And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Notice the sequence- he makes the scourge, and having made it, drives them (the money lenders) out of the temple, then the sheep and the oxen. Overturns the tables, scatters the money.

If you want to question jewish or christian stories from within, then you have to understand them first from the within perspective.

Goody goody. I was brought up as a devout Christian. Can I play now ?

you have no clue at all about theology.

More of that Christian humility. How refreshing.

concluded

Not my word-

Thou sayest it.

St Luke, 23:3

But it's a little bit laughable that you claim that much wisdom on a topic that you most probably know so little about.

Gosh, what would Augustine of Hippo say about such presumption ?

Do not presume; one of the thieves was damned.

Tee hee.

But the way you talk about facts and truths etc. really makes you look very very silly.

Silly me to address facts- facts after all can be checked and verified. Faith as we know doesn't require evidence, proof or facts.

I don't even know myself who I am in all these theological debates.

And yet you presume to 'know' what I'm able to argue about, or have knowledge of.

And you think you can have a clear view about me?

I'm not particularly interested in you. Nor can I say I've expressed any great interest in having a view 'about you' .

Perhaps you're not reading my posts literally, perhaps you're reading them 'metaphorically'.

I have many doubts and many uncertain things.

Welcome to the human condition.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
What years? Whose years?

Obi Gyn's.

So if his term papers were due in Tuesday week, or the following Wednesday, his tutors must have been very frustrated.

[Robert]

/molly bloom