British Aggressors arrest Member of the European Parliament

[MarkG]

Originally posted by molly bloom
A shared culture/religion do not necessarily equal ethnicity or nationality.

how about declaration of ethnicity?

The Tsarist Russians had a policy of Russification

i'd love to see any evidence of a policy of Hellenization of the ancient Macedonians (by who?)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MarkG
how about declaration of ethnicity?

By whom ? The ancient Macedonians ?

This assumes that the Greek 'identity' or 'nationality' then, is equivalent to Greek 'identity' in a Nineteenth Century race/nationalist sense.

(by who?)

By whom.

I didn't say there was a policy by anyone to Hellenize ancient Macedonia; just that similar things have been tried.

So it exists as a possibility- the Romans spreading the Roman culture through Roman language and religion to North Africa, Asia and Britain.

The Greeks spreading Hellenic culture to Massilia, Magna Graecia and the Crimea.

You can do it through trade, conquest or by persuading others that it would be in their interests to emulate you.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by molly bloom


I know an Indian Christian whose family worships a Jewish god, has Syriac as a church language and she speaks English as her first tongue.

A shared culture/religion do not necessarily equal ethnicity or nationality.

The Tsarist Russians had a policy of Russification- forcible conversion to Russian orthodoxy and forcible use of the Russian language- they applied it to Catholics, Lutherans, Uniates, Muslims and Jews.

And to Poles, Finns, Ukrainians, Armenians, et cetera.

Next you'll be saying that Carolus Magnus wasn't Roman

[MarkG]

Originally posted by molly bloom
This assumes that the Greek 'identity' or 'nationality' then, is equivalent to Greek 'identity' in a Nineteenth Century race/nationalist sense.

of course it wasnt the same. that's why we had periods where greek cities were at war with each other and periods where they united against other enemies.

this doesnt mean that macedonians where not a greek kingdom

I didn't say there was a policy by anyone to Hellenize ancient Macedonia; just that similar things have been tried.

So it exists as a possibility- the Romans spreading the Roman culture through Roman language and religion to North Africa, Asia and Britain.

possibility != evidence

meanwhile there are tons of evidence on the greek nature of the macedonian culture.

between evidence and possibility, i choose evidence...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Let Turkey and Greece fight it out.

It's rather criminal (or at least should be) here in the US to suggest advocating special ed kids to fight for our mere enjoyment.

[Imran Siddiqui]

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by MarkG
or give Greece all the land conquered by Alexander the Great...

Iraq goes to Greece! Iraq goes to Greece.
Now it's you guys' problem.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by MarkG
idiot? if you think about it for a minute, you would realize that he HOPED to be arrested

Well what is the problem then? Everyone's happy!

[Snotty]

all your base

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


republican voters mainly wouldnt, but about half of the US electorate is Dems or Dem leaners, and the number of them who would oppose Tony from the left is not all that large, despite Iraq.

Plus add the faction of the GOP that is more interested in foreign policy than domestic, and that loves Tony.

I mean I didnt mean to say that ONLY Virginia gets MPs.

The Tories would stand a chance, but theyd have move quickly to the right on a number of social issues to avoid a fundie oriented 3rd (well, actually what, 5th? 7th?) party. But New Labuor would be reinforced by all those Clintonian New Dems, who mostly dont have all the resentments against Tony that Labourites do.

Canucks are generally left of mainstream Dems and I doubt a majority of Canuck voters would land outside the British Tories.

You're agog over the superficial coverage you receive. You might have a different opinion after 18 months of his government and then a campaign where you actually hear the arguments.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MarkG
of course it wasnt the same.

Thanks for finally conceding that Greek identity in the 5th-4th Century B.C. is not the same as Greek nationality/identity in the 19th, 20th or 21st Centuries.

Now if only more of your countrymen could do that... we wouldn't have this problem of enosis with Cyprus- an island, after all, which was variously Egyptian, Phoenician, Achaemenid, Roman, Venetian et cetera....

that's why we had periods where greek cities were at war with each other and periods where they united against other enemies.

Indeed. And periods when the Greeks were encouraged to unite against foreign aggressors, such as the Achaemenids and... Macedonia!

Interesting orator Demosthenes. Here's what the Greek, Athenian patriot has to say about Macedonia and Phillip:

Philip started, men of Athens, with a great advantage. It happened that among the Greeks—not some, but all alike—there sprang up a crop of traitors and venal wretches, such as in the memory of man had never been before. These he got for his agents and supporters; the Greeks, already ill-disposed and unfriendly to each other, he brought into a still worse state,....

[...]

You cannot, men of Athens, you cannot have done wrongly when you accepted the risks of war for the redemption of liberties and mankind; I swear it by our forefathers who bore the brunt of warfare at Marathon, who stood in array of battle at Plataea, who fought in the sea-battles of Salamis and Artemisium...

Demosthenes, 'On The Crown'.

Interesting comparisons. Weren't those battles fought against the barbarian Persians ?

The same people that Alexander I of Macedon married his sister into- a satrap of Persia no less, became his brother in law. Alexander I collaborated with the Persians, even accompanying the army of Xerxes- only to turn against the Persians when fortune favoured the Greeks...

Ironically enough, this same Alexander I of Macedon was known as 'the Philhellene' .

Doesn't it seem rather strange to call a Greek, 'Philhellene' ? What else was a good Greek meant to be ?

Still, this Alexander I certainly showed his enthusiasm for Greek culture- after being debarred from participating in the Olympic Games he managed to find his family tree, which conveniently showed the Macedonian royal house of the Argeads was really all along connected to the ancient Argives.

Phew! What a stroke of luck! Fortunately we have Herodotus to let us know that....

But then the Macedonian royal family married into the Epirot/Molossians who of course can trace their ancestry back to Achilles, through his offspring Pyrrhus. And the Argeads can trace their ancestry back to Herakles.

How divine...

meanwhile there are tons of evidence on the greek nature of the macedonian culture.

'Culture' can be imported.

Anacharsis, a Scythian contemporary of Solon, visited Athens more than once. He was famed for his knowledge and wisdom, but eventually slain by his brother, a king of Thrace, for attempting to introduce the Greek cult of Cybele.

Interestingly enough, the cult of Cybele had been introduced into Greece from Asia...


One of the best examples of a Greek krater was found at the Celtic site of Vix, in France- alongside typically Celtic artefacts such as a gold torque and a wagon.

"In the northwest corner the archaeologists found a bronze krater (complete with lid), the most imposing ornamental vase that has so far come to light (Moscati, p.105).

The most important aspect of the vase is that female figure wearing long robe with a long shawl which she wears from her head to her waist has been carved in its center.

Scholars speculate that the Celts used it for mixing large amounts of wine and water (Moscati, p.105).

It also shows how the 'Vix princess' might have dressed. Other Mediterranean artifacts included "attic cups in painted pottery, . . . Etruscan basins, [and] oinochoe in bronze" (Moscati, p.106)

http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/Vix.html

Of course of the Macedonian royals, Alexander I was not the only 'Philhellene'; Archelaus actively pursued a policy of Hellenization, creating a special Macedonian festival at Dium in Pieria, offering the event as a dedication to the Nine Muses, calling it 'Olympian'- it even had athletic and music contests to make it really Greek.

He commissioned Zeuxis, the famous painter, to decorate the Macedonian palace, and invited the Greek poet Agathon and the Greek playwright Euripides to Macedonia. Socrates though, turned him down...

the greek nature of the macedonian culture.

Hmm.

How Greek is ensuring a blessing for the army by having a priest sever a dog in two, then getting the Macedonian forces to walk between the halves ?

Not very, is my supposition.

And of course Greek commentators also noted that the Macedonians wore bear pelts, a cord around their waists until they had killed a man, could not sit down to eat meat without having first killed a wild boar singlehandedly, drank until they were, erm, 'happy', out of vessels made from cattle horns, pronounced 'P' as 'B'... sounds just like daily life in Corinth or Athens or Thebes, doesn't it ?

As Horace said:

Greece, though conquered, conquered its wild vanquisher [Rome].

Or Alexander the Great...

between evidence and possibility, i choose evidence...

Oh me too.

When a country has to import painters, playwrights, poets and philiosophers to impress the neighbours, invent a family tree, set up instant 'Greek' festivals and claim ancestry from Greek gods, well, then that makes them look awfully nouveau Greek and wannabe Greek in my eyes....

[MarkG]

not much time atm, more later...

until then

Originally posted by molly bloom
Thanks for finally conceding that Greek identity in the 5th-4th Century B.C. is not the same as Greek nationality/identity in the 19th, 20th or 21st Centuries.

when did i state otherwise?

3000 years do make a difference in concepts and words. amazing!

Now if only more of your countrymen could do that... we wouldn't have this problem of enosis with Cyprus- an island, after all, which was variously Egyptian, Phoenician, Achaemenid, Roman, Venetian et cetera....

huh? greek cypriots are as greeks as, well, greeks
being under.... venetian rule doesnt make a group of people venetians...
do you understand the concept of a nation being under occupation by another country? would you argue that israelis didnt exist before 1948?

[Dinner]

Good to see another Greek criminal is in jail where he belongs.

[MarkG]

do you know many greek criminals who are not in jail?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MarkG
would you argue that israelis didnt exist before 1948?

Yes, I would.