Some people are never happy....

[aneeshm]

There is a particular breed of "intellectuals" in India, normally of the Communist or Leftist breeds, which loves to denigrate and try to degrade all aspects of Indian culture. The epics are one of their favourite targets. They love to try to destroy or somehow taint the image heroes have in the popular imagination.

They are also rank hypocrites.

When Krishna has 16,108 wives, it is sexual exploitation of the wives - no matter the fact that he is an incarnation of saguna God, and thus can keep them all happy and content, because he can take as many bodies and forms as he wishes.

When Draupadi has the five Pandava brothers as husbands, it is now Draupadi who is being exploited. This, in spite of the fact that she once expressed the desire that she had also had the sixth hero, and a brother of these five, as a husband, in addition to the five she already married.

This is quite an intriguing question, actually - if a man marries 1+n (n being integral greater than zero) wives, he is exploiting them. But if more than one man marries a woman, it is the woman who is being exploited! It seems that no matter what you actually do, it is always the woman being exploited in these people's view.

[dannubis]

A big, fat meh

[aneeshm]

Somehow, I've always associated the mental pronunciation of "meh" with farting.




So yes, a bit, fat meh.

[Spiffor]

Re: Some people are never happy....

Originally posted by aneeshm
It seems that no matter what you actually do, it is always the woman being exploited in these people's view.

Just like it bears exploitation of the underclass, the traditional Hindu society bears exploitation of women. Now, the women's fate is better in traditional Hindu society than in many other traditional societies: yet, there's progress to be made, and the progressists want it.

As the epics carry the values that made India into a patriarchy, any "example" in those epics -that legitimates such values in the eyes of the common man- deserves to be called on that.

[Perfection]

I think you're one of those some people.

[MRT144]

Some people are never happy....

and clearly they are Hindus. They always complain about other people.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Some people are never happy....

Originally posted by Spiffor

Just like it bears exploitation of the underclass, the traditional Hindu society bears exploitation of women. Now, the women's fate is better in traditional Hindu society than in many other traditional societies: yet, there's progress to be made, and the progressists want it.

As the epics carry the values that made India into a patriarchy, any "example" in those epics -that legitimates such values in the eyes of the common man- deserves to be called on that.

if the examples in the ancient texts are not intrinsically supportive of expolitation, but are traditionally interpreted in ways that support exploitation, then the project of reinterpretating them, reclaiming them, can be done by progressive religionists. Leftists can choose to ally themselves with that effort, or they can denigrate it, depending on what their ultimate goals are.

I myself attended a seder monday night led by a woman rabbi, that was heavily feminist in its orientation. We celebrated the often overlooked role of Miriam in the exodus, as well as that of other heroines, and in general challenged traditional patriarchal readings of the texts.

[Sandman]

What if they are intrinsically supportive of exploitation?

[Provost Harrison]

As long as aneeshm threads exist, I will never be happy

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Perfection
I think you're one of those some people.

QFT

[aneeshm]

Re: Re: Some people are never happy....

Originally posted by Spiffor

Just like it bears exploitation of the underclass, the traditional Hindu society bears exploitation of women. Now, the women's fate is better in traditional Hindu society than in many other traditional societies: yet, there's progress to be made, and the progressists want it.

As the epics carry the values that made India into a patriarchy, any "example" in those epics -that legitimates such values in the eyes of the common man- deserves to be called on that.

First, I'd like to say one thing about the two epics - they are extremely honest accounts. Everything is recorded as people thought it happened. Even the follies, failures, and even downright bad deeds of the heroes are recorded in merciless detail. That is why, if you try to make "perfect men" out of the heroes, instead of treating them as fallible humans, and a honest account, where even the heroes have faults, then you will find that they may legitimise patriarchy or stuff like that. You will be missing the essential point - that they are not supposed to be approached in that manner.

Hindus are all very clear on the fact that Krishna is not an example man is supposed to follow. It is Rama who is the "Ideal Man". And one of his chief characteristics was that he had a single wife, and was absolutely faithful to her. It is also accepted by every Hindu, traditionalists included, that Draupadi marrying the five Pandavas was because of a very, very weird and unusual set of circumstances, and cannot and should not be repeated.

It is because these people don't have an idea of what the traditional interpretation is, and about how the debate continues even now on what is the right way to go about it, that they can think up such ridiculous criticisms.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
What if they are intrinsically supportive of exploitation?

then the reclamation project is more difficult, at a minimum. However based on the interchange thus far between Aneeshm and spiff, I dont see that to be the case.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Some people are never happy....

Originally posted by aneeshm


First, I'd like to say one thing about the two epics - they are extremely honest accounts. Everything is recorded as people thought it happened. Even the follies, failures, and even downright bad deeds of the heroes are recorded in merciless detail. That is why, if you try to make "perfect men" out of the heroes, instead of treating them as fallible humans, and a honest account, where even the heroes have faults, then you will find that they may legitimise patriarchy or stuff like that. You will be missing the essential point - that they are not supposed to be approached in that manner.

Hindus are all very clear on the fact that Krishna is not an example man is supposed to follow. It is Rama who is the "Ideal Man". And one of his chief characteristics was that he had a single wife, and was absolutely faithful to her. It is also accepted by every Hindu, traditionalists included, that Draupadi marrying the five Pandavas was because of a very, very weird and unusual set of circumstances, and cannot and should not be repeated.

It is because these people don't have an idea of what the traditional interpretation is, and about how the debate continues even now on what is the right way to go about it, that they can think up such ridiculous criticisms.

Interesting Aneeshm.

Now imagine a world in which a daughter religion of Hinduism had embraced, yet radically reinterpretated the Hindu epics, while insisting on readings that supported the new religion in some cases, and insisting on literalism in others, rejecting the traditional Hindu interpretations in all cases. Imagine this dautghter faith marginalizing Hinduism in numbers and power. Then imagine the same leftists you dislike, attacking the Hindu epics, and, when you cite the traditional hindu interpretations, insisting that Hindu interpretations are irrelavant, and that only the daughter religions are releavant. Surreal, eh?

[Barnabas]

Re: Re: Re: Some people are never happy....

Originally posted by lord of the mark


if the examples in the ancient texts are not intrinsically supportive of expolitation, but are traditionally interpreted in ways that support exploitation, then the project of reinterpretating them, reclaiming them, can be done by progressive religionists. Leftists can choose to ally themselves with that effort, or they can denigrate it, depending on what their ultimate goals are.

I myself attended a seder monday night led by a woman rabbi, that was heavily feminist in its orientation. We celebrated the often overlooked role of Miriam in the exodus, as well as that of other heroines, and in general challenged traditional patriarchal readings of the texts.

Didnt God punish her with some disease for speaking against Moses, and force her to live for some days outside of the camp as punishment?

[DaShi]

Why does this make me think of nerd debates on which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek?