The importance of the Hadith, and their impact on modern Islam

[LordShiva]

Spiffor is a dirty Canadian

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Obviously, you've never been ruled by Islamic law. If the Muslims had had their way with Europe, the entire world would be a mess.

Being a Canadian, it's unlikely I'll ever live under Islamic law. Though we Canadians are moronic and liberal enough to welcome people from all over the world, including a fair amount of Muslims, I'm sure the US will bail us out once our Muslim migrants do what they planned to all along, i.e installing Sharia law in my country

[LordShiva]

When that happens, I'm sure you'll create another "Do you still like me?" thread to raise your self-esteem

[Spiffor]

I'll need it to face the hardships of living under an attempted sharia rule, and a successful American rule

[aneeshm]

I've never understood why the scholars of Islam can't be real men and admit that sometimes, old Mohammed just screwed up.

When, for instance, we in India screwed up with the caste system, when we realised it, we pretty much universally condemn it. All intellectuals, including the Hindu nationalist ones, condemn caste and caste discrimination in the harshest possible terms.

We can admit that the casteism and stuff like that in some part of the Mahabharat, or the Ramayana, or (most prominently) in the Puranas is not right, that it is not correct. We admit that our heroes had faults (though from the point of view of the society which created them, they were complete heroes), and that we reject those faults.

For instance, when, in the interpolated last book of the Ramayana, Rama kills a Sudra for performing penance not befitting his station, we reject that entire book. The VHP and RSS have unanimously and unequivocally condemned and rejected the Manu Smriti, which is a law-book which is casteist.

Why the hell can't the Muslims do the same? Admit that they made a mistake, and get over it? It'll be better for them in the long run, too.



Note that the above are rhetorical questions - I know that the entire superstructure of Islam will come crashing down if the foundations are cut away like this. But I'm saddened nonetheless.

[Spiffor]

More seriously anneshm, about your point re Islamic law if "The Muslims had it their way".

I know a fair amount of Muslims here, and they don't want to live under Sharia law. The few devout ones that I know want more or less to live by the rules of their religion, but they don't want to force me living by those rules that aren't mine.

The Muslims who want to install Islamic law in the west are a very small minority. I'm no more threatened by living under Islamic law than by going back to a catholic state church: most people, most believers, simply don't want it.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Spiffor
More seriously anneshm, about your point re Islamic law if "The Muslims had it their way".

I know a fair amount of Muslims here, and they don't want to live under Sharia law. The few devout ones that I know want more or less to live by the rules of their religion, but they don't want to force me living by those rules that aren't mine.

The Muslims who want to install Islamic law in the west are a very small minority. I'm no more threatened by living under Islamic law than by going back to a catholic state church: most people, most believers, simply don't want it.

You don't understand.

Back in those days, among Muslims, the state, the people, the scholars, everyone were devout and almost fanatics by today's standards. If they had conquered Europe back then, it would have been bye-bye Greco-European culture, goodbye results of the Renaissance, and the end of the West as we know it. The enlightenment, the reason for these Muslims being the way you describe them, would never have happened. The cultural achievements of the past thousand years would have been ground into dust. Europe would have become a land of the most abject poverty and suffering.

Why do I say that? Because that is what happened to my own country. It is only because we were EXTREMELY strong and obscenely rich before the invasion that we could even survive. India stopped being a major cultural basin of the world around 1200 to 1400 AD - right about the time the Muslim empires consolidated.

To give you an idea of how far this goes - there is a famous Islamic "scholar", a "Dr." Zakir Naik, who is quite beloved of Indian Muslims. Whenever Hinduism and Islam are discussed by Hindus and Muslims (that happens rarely enough), his name crops up sooner or later. But he STILL believes in the old Quranic punishments for adultery (death), theft (cutting off limbs), apostasy (death, again), and he supports the imposition of Islamic law. He also says that the same way you would not trust a mathematics teacher who says 2+2=3, you cannot trust other religions other than Islam - which means that EVEN though others allow Muslims freedom of worship, Muslims should not allow it to others.

He has a massive following in the Muslim community in India. They don't see anything wrong with what he preaches. And if they do, they keep resolutely quiet about it.

If you ever study the fatwas of the more serious scholars and Islamic institutions, you will see that they are still using the Quran and Hadith, and the previous works of fatwas within their own tradition, as the base of further work. Everything these people do and preach upon and declare can be traced back to the Quran or the Hadith.





Again, my point remains - unless they fess up and admit that they screwed up, there is no movement forward possible here.

[Kuciwalker]

nvm

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=aneeshm]If they had conquered Europe back then, it would have been bye-bye Greco-European culture[/q]

Err... didn't the Muslims of the Middle Ages preserve a lot of Greco-Roman works and build upon them? Oh wait, I'm bringing facts into this... my bad.

[EyesOfNight]

There's too much to overcome to simply fix it by them saying "we messed up." We went past that point a long, long time ago. It's either us or them at this point and the feel good multiculturalists need to be put in their place so the rest of the world can properly deal with this threat.

[EyesOfNight]

Err... didn't the Muslims of the Middle Ages preserve a lot of Greco-Roman works and build upon them? Oh wait, I'm bringing facts into this... my bad.

I don't think the guy who paraded around as his avatar the image of one of the most famous terrorists of all time after he died can really talk in this thread. I especially don't think he can talk when he heralds said terrorist as a partner in peace. I think you should just stick to "Islam is the religion of peace, you just don't understand it."

[Spiffor]

Aneeshm, you don't understand my point.

As it happens, Europe hasn't been conquered by the Muslims. When Drixnak talks about the Muslim threat on Europe, he's not talking about 10th century invasions, but about today's migrations and demographics.

The Muslims of today, who come to Europe, overwhelmingly don't want to impose Islamic law in Europe. Same for the Muslims who are born in Europe. I expect you'll quote scripture to tell me that no, it can't be, the scripture says they have to spread Islamic law. However, and forunately, most Muslims are pretty loose about their observance.

[Sprayber]

I suspect that if aneeshm had been born under different circumstances , he could have been a model for Islamic fundimentalism. Similar traits are beginning to emerge.

[Kuciwalker]

No, he wouldn't have been one of the fundamentalists per se. He would be an apologist.

[Kuciwalker]

In fact, he'd be much better accepted here because he'd constantly be complaining about teh evil Americans and teh evil West.