The worst casualty of the missionary activity in India.....

[Arrian]

Incidently, I've no love of missionaries. But let me get this straight:

Missionaries are considered annoying by Hindus (played up, no doubt, by Hindu nationalists like the RSS). This, in turn, results in anger at the "native" Indian Christian community. This anger (and violence, if any) is therefore the fault of the missionaries. Who, of course, are the ones attacking Christians... oh, wait...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by aneeshm


The slightest sliver of common sense will tell you that anti-conversion laws never work. People convert anyway. This is supposed to give the state a means of stopping people who use force, fraud, or bribery to convert people.

The slightest sliver of common sense would tell you this is a law designed to protect the political power of the RSS and/or its ilk.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Most poor Hindus would do better if they converted to another religion. No coercion would be needed, in fact very little is actually used, if it wasn't for the Hindu fanatics who attack & murder people who convert. We're not even mentioning the way the Indian government interferes with people's free exercise of religion and attempts to prevent conversions.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian


The slightest sliver of common sense would tell you this is a law designed to protect the political power of the RSS and/or its ilk.

-Arrian

If someone wanted to convert, but could not, due to law X, do you think that he would vote for the party which would have passed law X in the first place?

And you forget that the RSS does not have any political power, it is only organisation which are loosely based on the same ideals, such as the BJP, which act as political parties. They, however, have no formal relationship with the Sangh.

Of course, this whole debate is completely ass-backwards, because it is the anti-RSS party, the party which has tried to ban the RSS thrice in the past, the Congress party, which has passed this law.

[Verto]

I think the greatest amount of suffering is being endured by the OT.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by aneeshm


A law which bans conversion by force or fraud or bribery is a disgrace to a civilised nation? What definition of civilisation are you using, exactly?

The problem is how broadly they define these things so broadly that just about anything can fit their definition. The waiting periods and the requirements that people register their religion with the state (in the case of conversions) is also dung. They exist simply so that fundimentalist Hindus can target converts in order to pressure them or attack them.

With laws like that it is clear India doesn't really have freedom of religion.

[Arrian]

The RSS has no political power because it is not a political party, huh. I don't buy that at all.

However, you indicate that the Congress party is a political enemy of the RSS. Ok, tell me a bit about the Congress party. I see a number of objections to the law they passed up in the article Nikolai posted... none of which substantiate my theory about political power per se (I was thinking quotas and stuff like that). The article paints it as a law built on something akin to an urban myth, or a real phenomenon blown waaaaay out of proportion (OMG, tons of people are being forceably converted! We must DO SOMETHING!). That sort of idiocy happens everywhere. We've certainly seen it here. If that's the case, I apologize for insinuating that it's a Hindu nationalist thing.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

http://www.voiceofindia.com/

[aneeshm]

Nagaland is 94 % Christian, according to the 2001 census. When the majority in a village is converted, the missionaries sometimes "Expel the Infidels!"

The Naga are tribals. When the VHP, the Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, and other related organisations try to create a tribal identity within a Hindu framework, people cry foul, saying that tribals are not Hindus, even if there is no force or fraud or bribery involved, even if they are simply trying to expand the Hindu identity to include the tribal one and the tribal identity to include a Hindu element. Even if we accept this canard (that tribals are not Hindus) to be true, it is still Hinduism which they are closest to. But when Christian missionaries try to convert these same people, suddenly it is an issue of "Freedom of religion! Rights of the oppressed!"

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian
The RSS has no political power because it is not a political party, huh. I don't buy that at all.

However, you indicate that the Congress party is a political enemy of the RSS. Ok, tell me a bit about the Congress party.

-Arrian

Isn't the fact that the Congress has tried to ban the RSS thrice, that the current prime Minister (who is of the Congress party, which is currently ruling at the centre) has tried to appease the Muslims by saying that "they have a first right on (the nation's) resources", that they even went to the extent of removing a plaque commemorating Veer Savarkar in the Andaman and Nicobar Jail, that the protested when the BJP sought to install a statue of Savarkar in Parliament, enough indication that they the very antithesis of any reasonable definition of Hindu nationalists?

[MRT144]

india sucks no matter who is right

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by MRT144
india sucks no matter who is right

Weren't you the one who acted in pornographic material? I would be careful of how I use the word "suck" if I were you.

[Arrian]

The War Against Hinduism...

Now I don't have anything in particular against Christianity itself. I was born and raised a Christian, so I know what it is, but also how they work. My main contention is when the teachings that are said to come from Jesus are twisted and misinterpreted into something that does not spread the genuine love of God and humanity that we are all supposed to develop, but becomes the dog-like barking and criticism against every other religion that is not Christian. This does not only go on toward every religion outside of Christianity, but also within it between Catholics and Protestants and other denominations. It seems that this faith has become not something that promotes our similarities for cooperation, but our differences in that everyone who is of a unrelated Christian denomination are all going to hell.

I happen to agree, except I wouldn't single out Christianity at all. You are a prime example of a Hindu who does the same thing wrt to other religions (particularly Islam).

There are a bunch of allegations in the article that, if true, are pretty bad (wrt actions of the missionaries). Of course, there is no backup... just the author's word. So that makes it difficult to substantiate, especially for me, sitting here in the USA.

So these conversions are not taking place due to pure preaching of the Bible or the message of Jesus, but are accomplished by trickery and the emphasis on material facility. This is, of course, what is being objected to by the general Hindu population. However, when or if people convert for purely spiritual reasons, then there is no objection.

The beating of the man in Nikolai's post who married a Christian and converted seems to conflict with this statement.

Another way conversions are accomplished is with the promise to the Dalits or the lower caste Hindus that they will not have any more caste recognition by becoming Christians. However, after conversion many find out that this is not true. Even amongst the converted Christians there is found to be a caste mentality, with the lower castes forced to use separate doorways, separate seating, or have marriages performed only among equal caste Christians. When this becomes obvious to those who are newly converted, some of them want to come back to being Hindus again, which has been facilitated by such organizations as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP).

Poor Dalits. **** on by everyone (if this is true). Of course, this further highlights the ugliness of the caste system, and illustrates how entrenched it still is.

the Christian churches have threatened violence against the process of reconversion back to Hinduism that had been launched by the VHP. It was Rev. V. K. Nuh, secretary of the Nagaland Baptist Convention who said, "If someone tries to impose their faith, Christians in this region will not surrender. There will be a battle and we shall have no option. There will be a physical and religious war if attempts are made to propagate Hinduism by forceful means in the Northeast." In this same line of thinking, Rev. M.D. Oaugma, head of the Garo Baptist Convention of Mehgalaya said, "It could be a threat to Christianity if we remain silent to the VHP's game plan of mass conversion. We shall have to fight, we shall have to resist." (Maharashtra Herald, July 11, 1998)

While I was in New Delhi, I also met with Mrs. Shanti Reddy, a member of a government agency called the National Committee for Women. She revealed that another thing that missionaries have done was to kidnap young Indian children. What one Christian missionary couple in Chennai was doing before they were arrested was to bride tribals into giving their young baby girls to them. They would pay the tribals as little as 2000 to 5000 rupees for baby girls, and then turn around and sell the girls to foreigners for as much as $30,000 to $40,000. According to the records that had been confiscated from the missionaries' home, this had been a thriving business, and nearly 25 of such transactions had already taken place. The Indian authorities said they probably saved 300 baby girls from such a fate from the indications on the records they found.

This should be verifiable. There should be records of it somewhere. I'll try and google it once I'm done with this post. I'm getting "Jews steal our babies and drink their blood" vibes from it, though.

As I traveled around, it was not unusual to see elementary schools around India with the name something like "Saint Xavier's School." People should know that this Francis Xavier, who is now one of the greatest so-called "saints," feverishly declared, "When I have finished baptizing the people, I order them to destroy the huts in which they keep their idols; and I have them break the statues of their idols into tiny pieces, since they are now Christians. I could never come to an end describing to you the great consolation which fills my soul when I see idols being destroyed by the hands of those who had been idolaters." (From "The Letters and Instructions of Francis Xavier," 1993, pp 117-8)

Heh, there is a Xavier in my town. Sounds like a nice guy. Terrible thing, btw, for Christians to build schools in India.

India must be protected and kept as the homeland of the Vedic heritage, Sanatana-dharma, Hinduism. Without it, what is its value, in spite of whatever else it accomplishes?... Make no mistake; without Hinduism, India has no future.

Right. So don't let these evil furriners convert our people!

-Arrian

[Arrian]

The next article down from that one, from aneeshm's link:

Adam & Eve Cleared of Wrongdoing in Eden Case Serpent Also Exonerated...

Adam & Eve Cleared of Wrongdoing in Eden Case
Serpent Also Exonerated



Just look at the story of the beginning of the world. God said to Adam and Eve, "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, and don't eat from the tree of life."

He had prohibited two trees. Both are the most significant things in life: wisdom and life — and God denies both. Then you can go on eating all kinds of grass and whatsoever you want. He does not say, "Don't eat marijuana, don't drink alcohol." No, He is not interested in that.
Adam and Eve can smoke grass, that is allowed; can make wine from grapes, that is allowed.

Only two things are not allowed: they should not become knowers, they should remain ignorant; and they should not live, they should go on postponing life. And because they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge...they could not manage to eat the second tree's fruit, they were caught. After eating the fruit of knowledge they were speeding fast towards the tree of life but they were prevented immediately.


It is natural: anyone who has awareness, consciousness — which are the qualities of wisdom — his first thing will be to go deeper into life, to taste it as much as possible, to connect himself with its center, to be drowned in the mystery of life.

The story does not say it, but the story is not complete. I say to you, they were rushing immediately, because it is absolutely logical: after eating the fruit of knowledge they were rushing towards the tree of life. And that's why it was so easy for God to catch hold of them; otherwise, in the Garden of Eden there were so many millions of trees, where would He have found them? It would have taken eternity to search: rather than man searching for God, God would have been still searching for man, for where he is.


But I know how things would have happened — they are not told in the story. God, coming to know that they have eaten the fruit of knowledge, must have rushed immediately to the tree of life and waited there knowing that they must be coming. It is such simple logic, no Aristotle is needed.
And certainly they were caught there. Both were rushing, naked, rejoicing, because for the first time their eyes were open. For the first time they were human beings; before this they were only animals amongst other animals...and God threw them out of the Garden of Eden.
Since then, man has been longing for life, more life.

But the priests who represent the God that has driven you out of the Garden of Eden — the popes, the imams, the shankaracharyas, the rabbis, they all represent the same guy.

Strangely enough, nobody says that that guy was your first enemy. On the contrary, they say it was the poor serpent who convinced Eve, "You are being foolish by not eating from the tree of knowledge. God is jealous; He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you will become wise. And He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of life you will be just like God. Then who is going to worship Him? He is jealous, afraid — that's why He has prevented you."

This serpent was humanity's first friend — but he is condemned.
The friend is called the devil, and the enemy is called God. Strange are the ways of the human mind! You should thank the serpent! It is just because of the serpent that you have become what you have become. It is because of disobedience to God that you have attained a certain dignity, a pride of being human, a certain integrity, a certain individuality.


So instead of thanking God, change the phrase. Rather than saying, "Thank God!" say, "Thank the serpent!" It is just due to his compassion; otherwise why should he have bothered about you? He must have been a very compassionate fellow.

[Arrian]

Two posts down from that is this gem, posted without comment:

Monday, October 23, 2006
How to end WARs...

"Get hold of fifty of the wealthiest Jewish financiers, the men who are
interested in making wars for their own profit. Control them, and you will
put an end to it all."
Henry Ford