If not Christopher Columbus, then who?

[Dis]

Suppose he never made it, or his crew mutineed. Who would have done it? And in what year?

I know eventually someone would have crossed the Atlantic. How prevailent was the explorer attitude back then?

It was inevitable based on knowledge of the far east. There was just too many lands that they knew existed that must be reached somehow.

I wonder what a delay of 50 years might have had. Would the U.S. be what it is today?

[lord of the mark]

some Portugese guy headed around Africa to India would have been blown off course and discovered Brazil.

IIUC that is precisely how Brazil WAS discovered.

[lord of the mark]

Yup.

America would have been discovered by Pedro Alvares Cabral, on March 9, 1500

And wed all be speaking Portugese. Or not.


Wiki:

The fleet left Lisbon on March 9, 1500, and following the course laid down, sought to avoid the calms off the coast of Gulf of Guinea. On leaving the Cape Verde Islands, where Luís Pires was forced by a storm to return to Lisbon, they sailed in a decidedly southwesterly direction. On April 22 a mountain was visible, to which the name of Monte Pascoal was given; on the April 23 Cabral landed on the coast of Brazil, and on the April 25 the entire fleet sailed into the harbor called Porto Seguro. Cabral perceived that the new country lay east of the line of demarcation made by Pope Alexander VI (see Treaty of Tordesillas), and at once sent André Gonçalves (according to other authorities Gaspar de Lemos) to Portugal with the important tidings. Believing the newly-discovered country to be an island he gave it the name of Island of the True Cross (or Island of Vera Cruz) and took possession of it by erecting a cross and holding a religious service. The service was celebrated by the Franciscan, Father Henrique, afterwards Bishop of Ceuta.

Cabral resumed his voyage on May 3, 1500. By the end of the month the fleet approached the Cape of Good Hope, where it was struck by a storm in which four vessels, including that of Bartolomeu Dias, were lost. With the ships now reduced to one-half of the original number, Cabral reached Sofala on July 16 and Mozambique on July 20. In the latter place he received a cordial greeting. On July 26 he came to Kilwa where he was unable to make an agreement with the ruler. On August 2 he reached Melinde; here he had a friendly welcome and obtained a pilot to take him to India. On August 10, the ship commanded by Diogo Dias, separated by weather, discovered an island they named after St Lawrence, later known as Madagascar.

[Addled Platypus]

China should claim top honors for discovering America firstm just on the west coast

[Eli]

No proof for that.

[Tattila the Hun]

Scandinavians should claim the honors...

[Dis]

I seriously doubt China was there. On the other hand, you could claim the native americans were the first to discover america.

Vikings on the other hand. I think there is enough evidence to show they were here. Though not in Minnesota. I have no idea where that came from. I think it was the hoax some guy pulled. And they named a NFL team after that. LOL

Interesting about the Portuguese, I should have known that. They aren't that far off, so it shouldn't come as a surprise they would find Brazil first.

reminds me of a commodore 64 game. Passage to India. I loved that game. Actually I think it was called something else. I can't find it on a google search. I'm tempted to play that game now...

[molly bloom]

Let us not forget the Basques and the Cabots.

King Henry VII gave him a grant "full and free authoritie, leave, and power, to sayle to all partes, countreys, and seas, of the East, of the West, and of the North, under our banners and ensignes, with five ships ... and as many mariners or men as they will have in saide ships, upon their own proper costes and charges, to seeke out, discover, and finde, whatsoever iles, countreyes, regions or provinces of the heathen and infidelles, whatsoever they bee, and in what part of the world soever they be, whiche before this time have beene unknowen to all Christians."

http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/discovery/cabot.html

Cabot left with only one vessel, the Matthew, a small ship (50 tuns), but fast and able. The crew consisted of only 18 people. He departed on 20 May, 1497 (he had also made a voyage in 1496, but got no further than Iceland). He sailed to Dursey Head, Ireland, from where he sailed due west to Asia - or so he thought. He landed on the American eastcoast at 24 June, 1497. I would have liked to be more precise, but his landing-place is a matter of much controversy. He went ashore to take possession of the land, and explored the coast for some time, probably departing at 20 July. On the homeward travel his sailors thought they were going too far north, so Cabot sailed a more southernly course, reaching Brittany instead of England. At 6 August he arrived back in Bristol.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Dis

Vikings on the other hand. I think there is enough evidence to show they were here. Though not in Minnesota. I have no idea where that came from. I think it was the hoax some guy pulled. And they named a NFL team after that. LOL

That area is full of people of Scandanavian descent. The naming is not so odd when considered in that regard.

[Dr Strangelove]

Was Cabot's voyage undertaken because of the news of Colombus's discoveries or did Cabot have the desire to undertake the journey prior to information about Colombus's accomplishment?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Dauphin


That area is full of people of Scandanavian descent. The naming is not so odd when considered in that regard.

There was a large scale immigration of Scandinavians, primarily Norwegians to the US in the 1840s. They primarily entered the US via New York and moved west via the Eire canal and the Great Lakes, settling in what was then the edge of the frontier - Minnesota. I'm not sure what motivated this migration, possibly it wsa due to the crushing tyranny of Swedish rule.

[Barnabas]

Some portuguese guy would have


By the way, the portuguese, probably due to their antagonism with Spain, almost never admit that Columbus was the first one (I know vikings were there earlier, but it was irrelevant)

They have many conspiracy theories abut the subject, and in all America was discovered first by the portuguese.

In one of them, they discovered america, but the portuguese prefered the colonization of India and the east spice islands, so they send Columbus, as a portuguese secret agent, to make the Spaniards discover America, and that way they have the spaniards focus on america and leave the portuguese alone with their east asian trade.

America wasnt really important for the portuguese till they lost their asian colonies to the dutch and english, serious colonization of Brazil only started in the XVII century

[LordShiva]

Actually, I think Teh Native Americans discovered America first

[Dis]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Actually, I think Teh Native Americans discovered America first

I already said that!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Was Cabot's voyage undertaken because of the news of Colombus's discoveries or did Cabot have the desire to undertake the journey prior to information about Colombus's accomplishment?

He'd been a merchant in the Venetian trade with the Ottomans and Eastern Mediterranean.

Then he switched his attention to Spain and Portugal, BEFORE Columbus returned from his voyage to the World, so I suspect there was a merchants' grapevine which told of the riches in gold, slaves and ivory and finished goods which the Portuguese were reaping from the Atlantic African trade and of the idea of crossing the North Atlantic to find a shorter more direct route to the spice marts of India and the silk producing areas of the East.


There was a vogue in the Royal houses of Europe for finely crafted African ivory ware at the time, but unfortunately for Cabot, unlike Columbus he could not find a wealthy/important enough backer for his voyage, so he settled in Bristol- a port whose sailors my already have known of the existence of the Grand Banks fisheries. This was of course when fish, even dried fish, still played a hugely important part in the European diet, so...

An ivory salt cellar from Benin, from the 15th Century: