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When is war justified, part duex?

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  • Ned says:

    5) Historians cited Admiral Kerr's deliberate withholding of the destination of the two German ships as evidence of the conspiracy.
    Yes, a conspiracy. That's why the subtitle of the book is "The Conspiracy Behind the Escape of the Goeben & Breslau".

    Sadly, you are completely unaware about which conspiracy Mr. Miller is talking: he is talking about a conspiracy IN ATHENS, NOT IN LONDON, and this conspiracy is aimed AGAINST THE BRITISH, including Churchill. The entire 2nd part of Superior Force deals with this anti-British conspiracy. Admit it, you haven't read it, like you haven't read the diary of the American diplomat in Brussels although you said you had.

    Lets talk about this Greek conspiracy. Greek was neutral, and a British officer, Adm. Kerr, was in command of the Greek navy. The Greek King wanted his country to remain neutral because he thought that Greece would be crushed in a war against the Central Powers. Adm. Kerr, for dubious personal reasons, decided to support the King in this decision, thus conspiring against his home country, Britain. Some quotes:

    "Kerr had been convinced by the King that, in the interests of self-preservation, neutrality was the only course Greece could sensibly adopt; but could this be squared with a calculated decision to let two enemy ships escape? Was there another way? For the moment, Kerr could do nothing. The Kaiser’s impetuous telegram provided Kerr with the knowledge of Souchon’s eventual destination, yet, if he simply informed Milne that Goeben was near Syra was known to be heading for Constantinople, he stood the risk of compromising the King, with, perhaps, dire consequences for Greece. Admiral Kerr waited three days, until the evening of 7 August, when fortunately, or so it must have seemed at the time, the Greek navy obtained a W/T fix on Goeben. This, at last, provided Kerr with the opportunity to disguise the source. The signal Milne received after sailing from Malta stated that ‘from strength of signals Goeben thought to be near Syra’ so, apparently, Kerr was trying to lead Milne in the right direction. What he might not have counted on was the fact that Milne would ignore this new source of intelligence."

    But another person in Greece wants the German ships to escape to Constantinople, Prime Minister Venizelos. He wants Greece to join the Entente, and he has 3 reasons for letting the Goeben and Breslau escape. I've bolded the most important parts.

    "However, it was Venizelos himself who had three imperative motives for wanting Goeben and Breslau to reach Constantinople. Believing – following Quadt’s nocturnal visit – that Souchon was short of coal, the prospect of the German ships putting in to neutral Athens to coal, only to have them interned there should the British establish a blockade, must have been alarming to Venizelos to say the least. It is clear, for example, that Milne presumed that, once Souchon had entered the Aegean, one of the few options available to the German Admiral was to seek refuge in a Greek port.[lv] Whenever it suited him, Venizelos played on the King’s alleged German proclivities to win support for his own cause. Thoughts of a palace inspired coup against him, supported by the guns of the Mittelmeerdivision, would have been all the prompting Venizelos required to send Quadt on his way with a simple message on the back of a calling card and the expression of the Premier’s ‘friendliest intentions’ towards Germany.

    Second, if the Turks were wavering at the prospect of their new allegiance, the presence of Goeben and Breslau in the Golden Horn would have signalled the unequivocal alliance of Turkey with Germany, would have jolted Greek public opinion (which was tired of war and remained neutralist in the current crisis) and, if Venizelos played his cards right and could win support from the Entente, would have given him a chance at last to put an end to the Ottoman Empire, keep the Aegean Islands and perhaps, just perhaps, march on Constantinople. As evidence of this, once the German ships had arrived in the Golden Horn, the Venizelist newspaper Patris began the process of forming public opinion: by arming the enemies of Greece it declared, Germany had departed from the benevolent neutrality Greece had shown to Germany. Later, citing the fictitious sale of the German ships to Turkey as a move directed against Greece, the paper advocated Greek entry into the War.[lvi] In gambling so, Venizelos was applying the same logic as Ponceau in the Quai d’Orsay who, on 10 August, declared to Isvolsky, the Russian Ambassador, that ‘it might be advantageous for us to draw Turkey to the number of our enemies in order to make an end of her.’[lvii]

    Third, a revivified Turkish navy, manned by German officers, and with the addition of a first rate battle cruiser and cruiser, would have been overwhelmingly powerful in the Black Sea and therefore able to forestall a Russian descent on Constantinople, leaving the way clear for the Greeks to achieve their ambition, while the Aegean would have been out of bounds to the German ships due to the presence of the British and French navies in addition to the Greek. By ensuring that Goeben and Breslau made it safely through the Dardanelles Venizelos was also ensuring that their future radius of action would be limited to the Black Sea. From that moment on, Souchon’s only opponents would be the Russians. The Russian Black Sea fleet could not hope to launch an assault against the Ottoman capital once the Turkish fleet had been augmented by Goeben and Breslau and, with the Turkish army and navy fully committed in the east against the Russians, the way was left open for a Greek move on the Turkish rear, with the ultimate objective being the capture of Constantinople."


    But lets go back to Adm. Kerr, and another summary of his motives for conspiring against his home country:

    "And Kerr’s motives? It seems clear that, having finally decided upon a course of action, Kerr would not deviate; easily influenced initially he also possessed, in greater measure than average, a capacity for self-deception — Kerr could convince himself of anything. As a corollary to this was a predisposition, evident throughout his career, to an exaggerated appraisal of his own opinions. Is it not plausible therefore that, for a few crucial days early in August 1914, an impressionable, egotistical officer who suddenly found himself in possession of vital information which could affect the course of the war, might not have taken it upon himself to decide how that information was to be used? What other explanation is there for Kerr to have kept his silence when, if not by 4 August certainly by the 7th, he must have known that Souchon was heading for the Dardanelles? Having been convinced by the King that neutrality was the only course open to Greece, Kerr could have reasoned that, with the German ships safely through the Straits, the possibility of Greece now attacking Turkey was out of the question. Unable to attack Turkey, worried always about Bulgaria, the only option available then was neutrality.
    The irony is that, for a number of different reasons, Venizelos also desired that the German ships should escape. Again, no other interpretation of his action in allowing the Bogados to sail with her precious cargo is tenable. Kerr and Venizelos were applying the same means to achieve different ends. Venizelos also knew Souchon’s destination and kept quiet about it. Once at their destination, the German ships, he could have reasoned, would have precipitated a quick breach between Turkey and her neighbours under the influence of Turkey’s German allies. With Turkey in the war it would have made sense for the Entente, as they planned, to seek active Greek participation. Venizelos could then name his terms, not least of which would be the fulfilment of long-standing Greek aspirations to large slices of the Ottoman Empire. What Venizelos did not count on, what robbed him of his glorious goal, was the reluctance of the Turks to enter the lists. By the time the Turks were eventually forced into the war by Souchon and Enver Pasha Venizelos had lost his chance to march, hand-in-hand, with the Entente Powers."


    Result: Kerr does not inform London about the position of the German ships. The British government, INCLUDING CHURCHILL, didn't even know the destination of the German ships!!

    "The eventual destination of Goeben and Breslau (a mystery to the British until the ships actually reached the Dardanelles)"

    Yet you claim that it was Churchill who let them escape to Constantinople!

    Comment


    • Ned says:

      6) Crewe, a pro-war cabinent memember, ordered the Indian army to Iraqi long before war broke out.
      You, Sir, are deliberately lying again. I have already pointed out that the Indian army was sent to Bahrein and Iran, Allies of the British, to secure these territories. Only AFTER the Ottoman Empire enter the war, and it did so by attacking Russia, these troops were ordered to prepare an attack. The actual battle happened after the DOW. Here is the relevant paragraph again, you have quoted it yourself, but you still repeat this lie again and again:

      "Battle timeline

      16 October 1914
      The convoy containing Indian Expeditionary Force 'D' moved from Bombay and sailed straight to the head of the Gulf, without stopping, anchored off Bahrein.

      5 November 1914
      The orders given to Brig-General W.S.Delamain - commanding the Force - were to protect the oil refineries, tanks and pipeline at Abadan and cover the landing of reinforcements if these should be required. Only if hostilities with Turkey were to become fact should he try to occupy Basra too, and to do this the rest of the 6th (Poona) Division of the Indian Army would arrive. News came through that Turkey had attacked Russia on the Black Sea coast, and war was declared on this day."

      Comment


      • Ned says:

        7) Churchill's attacked the Dardenelles before England had made a decision to go to war with the Ottoman Empire. While everyone cites the attacks of the German warships under Turkish flag on Russia as justification for the DOW, the Brits knew the attack was by the German admiral and may not have been authorized by the government. Peace or war was still in doubt.
        Ned fails to prove that "the Brits knew the attack was by the German admiral and may not have been authorized by the government". Why? Simply because the attack actually was authorized by Enver Pascha, the Turkish Minister of War. Here is the document:

        "The entire fleet should manoeuvre in Black Sea. When you find a favourable opportunity, attack the Russian fleet. Before initiating hostilities, open my secret order personally given you this morning. To prevent transport of material to Serbia, act as already agreed upon. Enver Pasha.

        The Turkish fleet should gain mastery of Black Sea by force. Seek out the Russian fleet and attack her wherever you find her without declaration of war. Enver Pasha.[7]"


        Furthermore it doesn't matter who is in command of the ships, they were flying Turkish flags and they attacked Russia.

        Peace or War were not in doubt. The Ottoman Empire had already joined the war.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ned

          8) I also supported my point that the fleet arrangements per Churchill to put the entire French fleet in Mediterranean and guaranteeing that Brits would protect the French channel points, was the decisive reason the British government reversed itself from a neutral stance to war stance. Earlier cabinent meetings had already decided that a German invasion of Belgium would not force England to go to war.
          One topic at a time. This has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. Lets discuss this later, agreed?

          Comment


          • Now it is my turn to ask Ned some questions:

            1. Why did Britain modernize the Turkish Navy, when, in your opinion, the British government was so eager to demolish the Ottoman Empire? Quote from Superior Force: "Before WW1, at Turkish invitation, Britain undertook the onerous task of modernizing Turkey’s navy; Germany reformed her army; France contributed most financially."


            2. How do you reconcile this quote from Superior Force with your allegation that Britain wanted the Ottoman Empire to join the war on Germany's side:

            "Despite this, the theory that the escape was engineered to bolster Turkish defences, or even assure that she sided with Germany – in which case the country could be dismembered (something, after all, one could not do to an ally) – ignores the comments of Asquith and the actions of Grey. The Foreign Secretary was eager to maintain Turkish neutrality for as long as possible to avoid upsetting Muslim feeling in India and Egypt; he made his position on this known to the French and Russians as early as 15 August.[18]"


            3. Ned refuses to acknowledge the following fact:

            a) The Goeben and the Breslau, anchored at Constantinople, used their guns to pressure the Turkish government into a pro-German stance. For proof see Chapter 15, and the following quote from the Introduction: "the Turks themselves pursued a course of delaying for as long as possible the moment when the debt incurred following the signature of the Turco-German Treaty of Alliance on 2 August 1914 would be called in. This begs the question, for how long could the Turks have kept up the pretence had their hand not been forced by Admiral Souchon?"
            b) Germany pays 2 Million pounds to the Ottoman Empire in exchange for a Turkish attack. For proof see Chapter 15.
            c) The German Admiral himself says that "I have thrown the Turks into the powder-keg and kindled war between Russia and Turkey."
            d) This argument is supported by the following quote from Captain Reginald Hall, the Director of the Intelligence Department at the Admiralty from October 1914: "From very certain information one could definitely say that the entry of Turkey into the war was forced by the guns of Goeben, by Goeben actually arriving there – that the entry of Turkey was by no means a unanimous opinion of the Young Turk party itself."

            Ned summarized the above with "Germany wanted Turkey in the war on the side of Germany. Agreed." Yes, agreed! But can you elaborate on the importance of these fact a bit? Please? Were they crucial for the Ottoman Empire to side with Germany?


            4. How can Churchill let the Goeben and Breslau escape to Constantinople when he doesn't even know a) their position b) their destination?


            5. Do you finally admit that the British actions in the Persian Gulf were not an act of war? That the Mesopotamian Campaign started after the Turkish attack on Russia? That before that Turkish attack, the troops were deployed defensively in Bahrain and Persia, two countries Allied with Britain?


            6. Do you finally admit that seizing the 2 Turkish battleships in Britain was legal, and that Churchill offered a generous compensation for them in case Turkey remained neutral? That he seized them not in order to provoke the Ottoman Empire, but because the Royal Navy desperately needed them?


            7. Several days ago you have said: "Contemporaneously, the Brits also try to prevent two other ships of German manufacture from being delivered to the Ottomans. They get through." Do you admit that at that time the Goeben and the Breslau were legitimate targets for the Royal Navy, since they were German at that time, and had already shelled French cities in Algeria?


            8. Several days ago you wanted me to explain "why the Brits continued on and conquered Mosul after the war had supposedly ended?" I answered by pointing out that the Armistice of Mundos allowed the Allies to occupy "any strategic point which mattered to the security of the Allies". Did this answer your question?
            Last edited by ElTigre; April 29, 2007, 09:22.

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