What if: Athens won the Peloponnesian War?

[Odin]

Would democracy have become the dominant form of government in Greece? Could a victorious Athens and it's vassals of held off Macedon? Could Athens's naval empire have evolved into a pan-Hellenic federation?

[Ned]

Democracy?

Imperialism would have had it dawn.

[Zkribbler]

By the end of the war, democracy was pretty much dead in Athens.

[Ned]

Athens was an Imperial power at the beginning of the war. Had it won, the Greek city-states would all be part of its empire.

[Arrian]

Athens was kinda like an earlier version of Rome (republican, but imperial).

-Arrian

[Zkribbler]

Actually is was a [limited] democracy...that is, decisions were made by the citizenry in general [the citizenry being defined something like Athenian-born male land owners].

[Lonestar]

the defination of voting citizens actually expanded during the war, as most of the landholders were refugees inside the Long Walls.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
By the end of the war, democracy was pretty much dead in Athens.

Huh? Athens was a Democracy right up until she lost the war, and the Sparta-backed oligarchy that followed was so brutal that it was quickly overthrown and democracy restored.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Ned
Democracy?

Imperialism would have had it dawn.

The Peloponnesian War was just as much an ideological war as it was a war between two great powers. The average Greek on the street generally supported Athens, despite (or in some cases because of) her heavy-handedness towards her "allies." It was the Sparta-backed, reactionary elites that whined and complained about Athenian "Imperialism."

[Arrian]

You don't have to be a "reactionary elite" to look at Athens' situation at the dawn of that war and think "proto-empire" dude.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

but athens empire was different from Romes. It didnt involve establishing provinces, sending out soldiers to settle the land, etc. It was a commericial/naval empire. Basically it involved tribute (disguised as contributions to the alliance) and the right to intervene in the locals form of govt. Maybe it would have evolved into something heavier handed, maybe not, but it sure wasnt there yet.

also, IIUC all athenian born freemen could vote, not just landowners. Am I wrong?

[Odin]

[SIZE=1]also, IIUC all athenian born freemen could vote, not just landowners. Am I wrong?

All adult male citizens could vote after the reforms following the fall of tyrant rule in 510 BC IIRC. Pericles did away with the last bastion of aristocratic power, the Areopagus (a kind of "House of Lords") during the Peloponnesian War.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Arrian
You don't have to be a "reactionary elite" to look at Athens' situation at the dawn of that war and think "proto-empire" dude.

-Arrian

Of course, but my understanding is that a lot of the lower and middle classes of the various city states sides with Athens nonetheless mainly because they despised the Sparta-backed aristocratic "fifth columns" in their city-states more then they feared Athenian overlordship.

[Tellius]

Hi,

I know it's an older thread, but very interesting.

I think it matters little who actually won the Pel. Wars. The wars were so devastating to both camps that the end result would have been the same: a short period of hegemonia from the victor, whomever that might have been, followed by a period of dominance by other city states (Thebes for instance). But eventually, Greece would have to fall for the Macedonians, whether Sparta or Athens would have won the war matters not.

Tellius

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Tellius
Hi,

I know it's an older thread, but very interesting.

I think it matters little who actually won the Pel. Wars. The wars were so devastating to both camps that the end result would have been the same: a short period of hegemonia from the victor, whomever that might have been, followed by a period of dominance by other city states (Thebes for instance). But eventually, Greece would have to fall for the Macedonians, whether Sparta or Athens would have won the war matters not.

Tellius

Wellthis is historical fiction, and I too would argue that what you say is one possible end of the story.
However, don't discard the possibility of a more stable Greek alliance and a quickly recovering Athens - then it would not have been so clear:
They would possibly have tried to go to war with Persia earlier, before Macedonians would act, or such an alliance could have proved strong enough to oppose the Macedons. Even as things really were, securing Greece was no easy walk for Philipp...