A sign you need to get out more..

[Pekka]

After getting out of the poker addiction, I mean, I was playing a lot. I wasn't losing, I was winning a bit, but the problem is the time spent playing and reading all the theories over and over and over and over again plus watching all these tournaments and shows... it's extremely addictive if you're the type of person who likes theories and numbers. Naturally I wasn't making a lot of money, I never got to that point, but little something something, this is to say, a winning player on average.

But the time it was taking up, it was definitely a big problem. You poker players know what I'm talking about. If you play poker with passion, there is no time for anything else, period.

I made a promise to not put any money on my gaming accounts, but now I'm into something else. I'm into blackjack, and that's like the worst bet as well. But I love the challence, I like the idea of it. I mean the idea of counting cards, betting strategy etc. I haven't actually played it live yet, but I noticed I've consumed two books and as I finish one, I just read it again, make notes, practice counting etc. I'm a bit worried this might become a problem, I'm too fascinated with it. Too fascinated with counting and the strategies. Plus, I think I'm not good enough to make it, I think under the pressure I won't be able to concentrate enough to be able to do it. It's just realism, in fact there aren't lots of peopel who can do it, especially in a live situation. But the proposition is intriquing

A sign to pick up drinking again.

[ZEE]

:beer:

i tend to obsess about things as well Pekka...

and nothing wrong with drinking...

PIECE

[Pekka]

It's a different kind of obsessing though. It's not even about the money or the .. well it is a bit about the money, but the big thing is the challenge and 'beating the game'. We know poker (texas hold'em) is definitely a game of skill in the long term, and blackjack is a game of skill as well, but ONLY if you're really really good. In poker, you can beat weak players pretty easily, people who have 0 understanding of it.

But with blackjack, you need basic strategy, counting cards and optimal betting to come over the top. It's really difficult IMO, but that's why it is a big challenge, plus you're playing against the house so it's 'beating the game', unlike in poker. So I'm obsessing about getting a new bankroll with poker, and at some point start playing live blackjack with the separate bankroll generated from poker until becoming a winning player.

It's a bad ****ing idea. Not money wise, because 0 euros from my actual money goes in it, but the time it takes? This means no life what so ever, the poker sucks it out of you, I can only imagine blackjack. But the thrill is greater, I might become seriously addicted, so I'm just warning myself here already

[ZEE]

Pekka,

I must say i dont know about gambling too much, but i do know a little something about being addicted. I have been addicted to MANY different things over the course of my life... and NONE of them were good. While it may be fun now... later on you just might, hypothetically speaking of course, WANT TO play for money... then it becomes a BIG problem...

[Pekka]

No. With poker the problem is the time it consumes, like I say, I'm a winning player at the right table, and I choose the right table.

Blackjack is all about counting and optimal bets. The difference is, you need to go on for a long time, it's not hand and hand after another and you kind of don't have to remember so much, of course you should remember the betting patterns of your opponents and all that stuff, however, in blackjack you need to be counting at all times, every single card, until they shuffle again. That will take a lot of hands, and that's not all, you need to be making the correct actions, double down, hit, surrender, split etc. depending on the situation, and THEN comes the optimal betting. This I can do fairly well, except when there's distraction, I can't. Even music will throw me off, and that's when I'm practicing just by myself in no pressure environment and no one else talking. So I know I'm not nearly ready to go at it.

But do not confuse this with gambling addiction. Those guys are losers, who can't play the game. They are just there to give their money away, thinking maybe they'll get lucky or some crap like that. It's all about the odds and optimal betting, and in the long run, you'll win. So that's takes a LOOOOOOOOOT of time and that's the problem. Time is a problem, since I can't make a living out of it. If I could, yeah that woudl be great, but I can't so that time is wasted.

[ZEE]

Pekka,

i admit the only card game im good at is "Spades." And that is so basic and academic there isnt all of the stuff involved like you are talking about with Blackjack. It sounds, to me, like you are a very good player with all the tricks and stuff...

but back to what i was saying about addiction, ties in with what you are saying about spending too much time at cards. Besides the fact that MY addictions cost me a LOT of money... the most valuable thing i lost was time. i lost the PRIME of my life to addictions, now i nearing middle age... with all that time wasted... on ADDICTIONS. Not good... PIECE

[Pekka]

No, I'm NOT a good blackjack player I can't count cards if there's distraction . So that makes the ability obsolete. But I'm practicing, hence the title of the topic .

It's all about math in blackjack, poker has more variation, yet I consider blackjack to be more difficult, simply because of the fast pace and distraction and you need to be in a zone to keep the track. In poker, the only way to be sure to be a winning player is to play against weaker players, so you can see what's going on. But even then you can run out of luck. It's ups an downs, the time is the equalizer that makes you the winning player. So you need patience and lots of hands and bankroll, and definitely knowledge. It's just a fact. Like they say, in any given hand it's 99% luck, but in the longer term (say, a year or two), it's 99% skill. You just need to play against weaker players, even if you have your theory down whcih you can't learn all in a life time anyway, there are so many better players than you that you need to avoid playing against them as much as possible. They'll take you out. Unless you get lucky, but in the long term, you lose. Pretty simple so far, yes?

In blackjack, you need not to worry about your opponents so much, because it is done purely with math and no bluffing, no pshychological games going on, so it's much more technical and dirty and raw like that. BUT, when you get to bigger money, then the house starts haunting you, so you need to be able to disguise your skill, because they'll throw you out, even though you didn't do anything illegal. But they won't let you play there if they find out you can count cards well and the whole 9 yards. Now that becomes the game of the true masters, I don't have that kind of potential. My only potential is to be able to execute the strategy perfectly with little money, so most likely they don't care. But the thrill is in the strategy and theory for me anyway.

Also, the key in poker is to play at your own level so you won't go broke, but it can still happen, you just need to be grinding again to get up. In blackjack, if you play correctly, you are NOT going to go broke. The "MIT" strategy suggests your bankroll to be 1000 times your basic betting unit, so if you bet 10 dollars as your basic bet, it means you need a bankroll of 10k to not go broke. YOu need to ride out the intervals, because naturally you can't be guaranteed to WIN every single night even if oyu play correctly, time will take care of that, as the odds are with you when you do play correctly. Adn it's all about odds.

Now, what you do is you adjust your betting units, so if you'd go to 100k bankroll, your basic unit is now $100... etc etc. of course, if you don't adjust, you can go broke. It's all about the math, plus you don't take that into the table, you take around 32 times of your basic betting unit, that would be $3200 with 100k bankroll, and that's one session. The point is, you still need about 1000 times the basic betting unit, so you need to be grinding with poker for so long to be able to get even 10k from nothing, well for me it would take a long time, since I'm not a top player, only average. And that would allow your basic betting unit to be $10, which I consider to be the absolute minimum.

Of course, if you don't have the math and you can't execute, you'll be losing that money very quickly, 10k down the drain, nice one

But to the topic, yeah. I mean I should be going out, flirting with girls, partying etc. Instead, after work/studies I just practice counting cards, betting strategies, reading about it, and that's like the 'hard work' but fun, then if I want to have a bit of fun, I'll watch poker. I'm still not allowed to play, since then that is all I do. Imagine my conversation with people 'so we went to this bar... what did oyu do anyway?' 'Yeah, I was like, you know how if you're at like +19 and there's two decks left and all you're getting is soft eights and then you bet wrong, so you get upset and then you lose the count, guess it wrong afterwards like off plus minus 5, so your betting will continue to go way off, and then you're just upset?' 'no. How much did you lose?' 'No I didnn't lose, I was practicing at home'... yeah. That's pretty bad. All you can think is odds, betting and numbers, I don't even care about porno anymore. That's when you know you love poker etc, you're getting all these poker videos and shows and events, and 0 amount of porn.

[Dinner]

I like Blackjack much more then poker.

[ZEE]

Pekka,

this is the first time ive ever heard of the "bankroll formula." I can certainly picture "bawlerz" rolling up in the house, slapping down 10g'z, and taking everybodys bank. Hell ive seen it happen.

In spades its more about the psycological warfare such as in Poker. except in spades you get your "TRUMP" suit where you cut peoples heads off... sometimes your own partners. Fights and blood feuds have started because of a game of "JAIL HOUSE" spades. You also have to be careful on just WHOS money you are taking. In Poker you might go against the "weaker" players... but be careful you dont get a wolf in sheeps clothing... who DOSENT like to lose... ive ALSO seen this happen. All in all i just play for fun now...

and porn is good too

[Pekka]

Well, if you can't tell the weaker player, then you are the fish, so... unless there's some ego problems, that shouldn't be a problem.

Bankrolls are counted very differently, depending on the game and strategy. However, the theory will suggest a figure that is optimal and so the most strategies will support it. The idea is that you can go through bad luck and still have enough money to get up again on another day, and to do is as many times so the equalizing effect kicks in.

Anyone can be a winner in any given day. The long term is what counts.

But blackjack is still extremely difficult to play correctly, when the optimal betting kicks in. Because optimal betting assumes you know the current count. The easiest thing to learn is if you should spilt, double down, hit or surrender. That's the easy part. The difficult part is to do the betting correctly while distracted. But the MOST difficult thing is to fake your plays, because the house will pick it up that your bets are always highest when there's big cards flying around, so it's not a mistake when it starts to happen too often. SO, they'll put surveillance on your ass, and you need to fake your play unless you want to get thrown out. Now THAT is ****ing difficult, since you have to make bad plays, but make it as cheap as possible, yet at the same time keep the situation current and updated in your head, so they can't figure out your betting patterns too easily, and still keep winning, even though you make some bad plays and lose some. That is not easy. I can't do that on the fly even if I'm in the zone right now, but that's because the optimal betting is not my second nature yet. I need to be able to do it without thinking so I can concentrate on faking plays.

[ZEE]

Pekka,

persistance definately pays... and if you have BANK to back up your game, the odds will eventually swing in your favour. excellent strategy if i may say so... BRAVO!

I always played for "bragging rights" though, yeah money was involved, but for me it was about beating the BEST. you see i thought i was the BEST... and i tried to match others who also had game. It was a game of psycological warfare... a game of PUNKING out your opponent. You also have to USE your partner... but if your partner sucks, then YOU have to carry the load and hope he dosent cut off your head. easy game to learn... damn near IMPOSSIBLE to master...

And yes anyone CAN be a winner any given day. utter "noobs" have smoked me before. also i KNOW how hard it is to fake your skill... im not good at doing that at all.

[Lord Avalon]

Blackjack: hard to count cards when there's 6 decks in the shoe, and they don't deal till the end.

[Pekka]

Lord Avalon, yeah, that's why you will be loving deep cuts, but even if it isn't so, you can still count. Hey, if it was easy, I guess we'd be all millionaires


PS. it doesn't matter how many decks there are, I mean it does, but.. 2 decks, 3 decks, 6, 9, doesn't matter. Unless you're using some inferior counting strategy