300 (movie)

[Elok]

Originally posted by Keygen
This might surprise you but apart from treating helots more or less like slaves, Spartans can be accused to be more moderate and progressive in many aspects than other Greek states like Corinth or Athens, or even other civilizations. It's all written, all you have to do is read and make your conclusions.

Hey, apart from continually beating the black folk to death to make them grow cotton, the old South of my country had a lot going for it. Hospitality, honor, funny accents...but I just can't ignore that one niggling bit. Ditto for Sparta. Oh, and what about that quaint tradition of raising all boys in barracks, then setting them loose to murder helots for a living at sixteen (but punishing them if they were caught)? I suppose I do need to know more about the origins of Hellenic Civilization...

I'll take your word on this. I guess you KNOW from first hand. I just wonder who you were back then? The Spartan or the boy?

Neither. Like you said, it's all written, all you have to do is read and make your conclusions. Look, I have nothing against Greeks. Their mythology was fun, and the food (loukoumades (sp?), tiropita, gyros, pastitsio...) is slightly more addictive than crack. And of course they were also the inventors of democracy, drama, sliced pita bread, etc. But there's bad along with the good, and you're going to have to accept that you're descended from people who expected their gentlemen to roger twelve-year-old boys every once in a while.

[Nostromo]

I saw a review today. Their verdict: nice visuals, boring story. I think I'll pass. They showed some bits of the movie. Did I see monsters? I mean, WTF???

[Keygen]

Originally posted by MRT144

Only a greek would view it as a troll.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Elok

Hey, apart from continually beating the black folk to death to make them grow cotton, the old South of my country had a lot going for it. Hospitality, honor, funny accents...but I just can't ignore that one niggling bit. Ditto for Sparta. Oh, and what about that quaint tradition of raising all boys in barracks, then setting them loose to murder helots for a living at sixteen (but punishing them if they were caught)? I suppose I do need to know more about the origins of Hellenic Civilization...

Nobody is perfect.

Athenians brought Democracy but when Melos defected from Delian League they slaughtered all male population in the island.

If you spare the time I can give you lot of examples from other nations doing atrocities.

I don't think though that all Spartans brought to the world was the police state

Originally posted by Elok

Neither. Like you said, it's all written, all you have to do is read and make your conclusions. Look, I have nothing against Greeks. Their mythology was fun, and the food (loukoumades (sp?), tiropita, gyros, pastitsio...) is slightly more addictive than crack. And of course they were also the inventors of democracy, drama, sliced pita bread, etc. But there's bad along with the good, and you're going to have to accept that you're descended from people who expected their gentlemen to roger twelve-year-old boys every once in a while.

If food is all what you can think of Greece then I feel sorry for you, you should do your homework more carefully next time.

I can accept that a minority or even the majority of Spartans had a tendency to homosexuality, it looks kind natural for soldiers living in camps with men for more than a decade - the English sailors had that tendency too a few hundred years ago - but accusing all Spartans being pedophiles, that is sick

And I find it kind difficult for me to be a descendant of 5000 Spartans that lived 2500 thousand years ago

[Cyclotron]

This is probably better placed in the History Forum, but I imagine that life under the auspices of the Persian Empire would probably have been less odious than life under Spartan hegemony. The Persian Empire afforded a great deal of local autonomy through its system of satrapies; sure, the Greeks would have had to pay tribute when asked, but it seems unlikely that life under the Empire after the conquering was over would be terribly objectionable. Greece was so far from the Persian center and so difficult to reach logistically that its seems improbable that the average Greek would really notice much of a difference. A lot of Greeks were already fighting for the Persians at the time and others were already allied to or subordinated to the Empire, and I don't believe they were terribly oppressed the whole time.

Still, the story resonates for its David-and-Goliath motifs, and it's a darn good story at that.

Edit: Actually, given the history of the Delian League, Athenian rulership probably would have been worse than both

[Elok]

I didn't say you were a descendant of the Spartans. Do you think they were the only ones who diddled kids back then? It was an established institution. And when your whole society rests on an atrocity like the persistent abuse of helots, it's different from isolated events, however nasty. That society was messed up.

I mentioned other things besides food. Greek food is just the one I appreciate most often. It would be democracy, but my experience with the American version of late makes me a trifle lukewarm towards that ideal. It's still good, mind you, just hard to get excited about after seeing what it hath wrought.

Oh, and you Greeks and your jingoism are helping to drive the Ecumenical Patriarchate into the ground. But that's another story.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by LordShiva
But the movie portrays Sparta an enlightened democracy, and Persia as consisting entirely of orcs

Yeah, this was my major complaint. I understand the comic book dramatization for the most part, but I think it would have been a better movie if they were shown as fighting men instead of monsters. They pretty clearly wanted to be LOTR in a lot of places and it took me out of the idea of the actual battle.

Then again, based on the group of people from my fiancee's work that we saw it with, getting the names right is more historical accuracy than is actually necessary.

300 should win every visual effects and cinematography award of the year, but it won't. If they have a before-and-after section on the effects when it comes out on DVD it'll actually be worth buying (not something I think about most DVDs.)

[Nostromo]

Yeah, this was my major complaint. I understand the comic book dramatization for the most part, but I think it would have been a better movie if they were shown as fighting men instead of monsters. They pretty clearly wanted to be LOTR in a lot of places and it took me out of the idea of the actual battle.

You mean the Persians are actually monsters, like orcs? How lame is that? I was looking forward to see that movie.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by nostromo
You mean the Persians are actually monsters, like orcs? How lame is that? I was looking forward to see that movie.

They have a lot of cannon fodder that look normal, but when the Immortals show up they, well, don't.

And Xerxes is apparently 8.5 ft. tall.

[Nostromo]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/300/

The consensus: a simple-minded but visually exciting experience.

An average of 60% so far. Wow, it looks good. I think I'll go see a good movie instead.

[Drake Tungsten]

If food is all what you can think of Greece then I feel sorry for you

I don't even think of food when I think of Greece. "Greek" food is all really Turkish in origin anyway...

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
... And Xerxes is apparently 8.5 ft. tall.

He has a nice, deep voice, too. He'd definitely stand out in a men's chorus.

Gatekeeper

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Cyclotron

This is probably better placed in the History Forum, but I imagine that life under the auspices of the Persian Empire would probably have been less odious than life under Spartan hegemony. The Persian Empire afforded a great deal of local autonomy through its system of satrapies;

After the Spartans won the Peloponnesian War the control of the Greek world passed to their hands. They oppressed heavily who ever resisted like the Athenians did before them but gave lot of freedom to those that accepted their domination over them and converted to oligarchy.

But that was exactly what the Persians did and every empire that followed. I do not understand why you're so picky, I guess you're to biased...

Originally posted by Cyclotron

sure, the Greeks would have had to pay tribute when asked, but it seems unlikely that life under the Empire after the conquering was over would be terribly objectionable. Greece was so far from the Persian center and so difficult to reach logistically that its seems improbable that the average Greek would really notice much of a difference. A lot of Greeks were already fighting for the Persians at the time and others were already allied to or subordinated to the Empire, and I don't believe they were terribly oppressed the whole time.

Heh, what kind of logic is that

If your ancestors were thinking the same way you do, they would be under the empire too, the British empire that is

[LordShiva]

I watched the movie this evening.



Very aesthetically pleasing, but whenever anyone opened his/her mouth it totally killed the mood. It was the same speech recycled over and over. "Rarr we are teh free men, we fight to teh death, TEH SPARTANS ROXXORS!!, we will preserve our legacy of freedom for teh world in teh face of Persian mysticism RARR!!"

And the what could have been a pretty cool portrayal of military tactics was totally butchered. They'd get into formation all nice and orderly, but when the Persians (who start out as a teeming mass as far as the eye can see but, closer to the Greeks, inexplicably scatter into dispersed, lightly armoured pansies) came within 50 metres of them, they'd break ranks and charge out into the open, fighting man to man for the rest of the battle sequence. Then, when all of the 100-200 odd Persians are lying dead, Leonidas would cry out "In formation!!! Sparta RARR!" and they'd all line up again, as if it's only for resting

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Elok

I didn't say you were a descendant of the Spartans. Do you think they were the only ones who diddled kids back then? It was an established institution.

Pedophilia is a world phenomenon and I have no reason to believe there were no pedophilia in the ancient times too, in Sparta, Athens, Babylon or even Jerusalem. But that kind of people have always been a tragic minority.

Did you know that Athens had laws against pedophilia? That means it existed, but the majority condemned it.

Originally posted by Elok

And when your whole society rests on an atrocity like the persistent abuse of helots, it's different from isolated events, however nasty. That society was messed up.

I can't agree more to that. Slavery however was abolished only 200 years ago and modern Greece was the first country to adopt it in my acknowledge.

Originally posted by Elok

I mentioned other things besides food. Greek food is just the one I appreciate most often. It would be democracy, but my experience with the American version of late makes me a trifle lukewarm towards that ideal. It's still good, mind you, just hard to get excited about after seeing what it hath wrought.

How about music, sculpture, philosophy, science, technology, military tactics and a whole bunch of other things?

Originally posted by Elok

Oh, and you Greeks and your jingoism are helping to drive the Ecumenical Patriarchate into the ground. But that's another story.

Jingoism? I do not believe that all Spartans were pedophiles and that makes me Jingoist? Man, are you biased against the Greeks or something?