What if Bush41 had continued to Baghdad and destroyed the Iraqi regime?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
ElTigre, I don't suggest that the Jews of the Pale couldn't be good Russians or Poles. I just suggest that they were not.

You didn't 'suggest' this. You said that for a Jew in the area formerly known as the Pale of Settlement to be a patriot was 'obscene'.

the only difference between them and other Russians or Poles is their religion is more than wrong, it is obscene.

See, Ned, that's called a 'direct quote'.

You didn't bother giving a good rationale for this curiously harsh condemnation of a wide range of people.

Spent too much time reading Holocaust denial websites is my diagnosis.

Three rather different views of Jewish patriots in the Pale and elsewhere :

The 2003 film "Arnold Margolin - An Eminent Ukrainian and Jew," shown here by its co-producer, Iryna Ovdiy, depicts the success story of a Jewish activist who was also a Ukrainian patriot, occupying important posts in the government of the Ukrainian National Republic (UNR) in 1918-1922, who later dedicated much of his life to Ukrainian causes. In contrast, the 2004 book "Jews of Ukraine in the Years 1943-1953: Outlines of Documented History," which was presented by its author, the historian and archivist Michael Mitsel, is a tale of Ukrainian Jews as victims of discrimination and persecution. Both presentations were complemented by the expert commentary of Dr. Taras Hunczak, professor of history and political science at Rutgers University.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2004/460431.shtml

and:

Simon Petlura was the head of The Directory, Ukraine's third government (the first was the Rada, the second the Hetmanate) during the days of Ukraine's first republic (1917-1920). The Ukrainian Social Democratic party to which Petlura belonged had a long tradition of friendly relations with Jewish political leaders.

Therefore, the Directory renewed Jewish personal-cultural autonomy [a Ministry for Jewish Affairs was first established by the Rada and abolished by the Hetmanate], attracted prominent Jews such as Arnold Margolin and Solomon Goldelman into its government, appropriated large amounts of money for pogrom victims, and even negotiated with the famous Zionist leader Vladimir Zhabotinsky about the inclusion of Jewish police units into its army.

Petlura issued Order No. 131 to all of his troops on 26 August 1919:

It is time for you to realize that the Jews together with the majority of the Ukrainian population have recognized the evil of the Bolshevik-Communist invasion and know already where the truth lies. The most important Jewish parties, such as: "Bund," "United Jewish Socialists," "Poalei-Zion," and the People's Party have decidedly placed themselves on the side of the Ukrainian independent state and are working together hand-in-hand for its good.

http://www.infoukes.com/politics/cbs60minutes/kuropas/

And in Poland:

During the Kosciuszko Insurrection and wars against Tsarist Russia in 1794 Jews supported the uprising either in auxiliary services or in arms. For example they took part in the April revolution in Warsaw where many of them perished.

After the Russian army was repulsed from Warsaw the idea was born to create a separate military unit composed of Jewish volunteers.

This idea was backed by the commander in chief of the Insurrection, Tadeusz Kosciuszko.

"Nothing can convince more the far away nations about the holiness of our cause and the justness of the present revolution," he wrote in a Statement on the Formation of a Regiment of Jews, "than that, though separated from us by their religion and customs, they sacrifice their own lives of their own free will in order to support the uprising."

The Jewish regiment under Colonel Berek Josielewicz took part in the fighting during the storming of the Praga district of Warsaw by Tsarist troops on 4 November 1794. With the blood shed in this war they documented the loyalty of the Jewish population to the cause of the revolution and the slogans it upheld-equality and fraternity.

http://www.zchor.org/heritage/history.htm

I'm not offering any commentary on the authenticity of the information, just using it to show how some people viewed Jews as fellow patriots.

They were roundly abused by the Russians for generations, so much so that many prominent Jews didn't want the US to go to war against Germany because that would be we would be helping Russia, their enemy.

Who, for instance ?

Now I am not clear on the attitude of the Jews of the Pale about Poland after WWI.

Surely not.

But, given that the Poles joined in with the Nazis in killing the Jews shortly after the German takeover in WWII, I suspect the relations between the Poles and the Jews of the Pale were not all that good.

Well, that's post 1939 Polish history summed up then, isn't it ?

Thanks for that exhaustive, well-documented guide to Polish-Jewish relations in Nazi-occupied Poland.

But the Jews got nothing.

Well actually they did get a Jewish Autonomous Region in Russia.

In 1934 the Soviet government established the Jewish Autonomous Region in a sparsely populated area some five thousand miles east of Moscow. Located along the Sino-Soviet border, the Jewish Autonomous Region, popularly known as Birobidzhan, was designated as the national homeland of Soviet Jewry.

'Stalin's Forgotten Zion', Robert Weinberger & Bradley Berman

Still, one might ask why Walther Rathenau should consider he had anything much in common with a Russian Jew living in the Crimea.

He after all described himself as:

' a German of the Jewish tribe. '

from 'Walther Rathenau: Industrialist, Banker, Intellectual, and Politician, Notes and Diaries 1907-1922', publ. Oxford 1985, edited by H. Pogge von Strandmann

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned

Hitler's racism didn't require him to conquer West, as those lands were already settled by fellow Aryans. His racism posed no threat to Briton.

I'm sure Great Britain's Jewish community would have found that a great comfort. Along with the British Roma, and British citizens from Asia and Africa and elsewhere.

Britain's first Asian Mayor took office in 1938.

http://www.movinghere.org.uk/galleries/histories/asian/politics/politics.htm

Sigmund Freud was also a rather well-known Jewish refugee in London, from Nazi-occupied Austria.

You can still visit his house in Hampstead...

The Freud Museum, at 20 Maresfield Gardens in Hampstead, was the home of Sigmund Freud and his family when they escaped Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938. It remained the family home until Anna Freud, the youngest daughter, died in 1982.

http://www.freud.org.uk/fmaboute.htm

First the Nazis burnt his books. What would they have done to him or his family had they conquered Great Britain ?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned

He did want to "break" the hegemony of Briton in Europe.

And precisely what hegemony in Europe did Great Britain exercise ?

Clearly not a very harsh or rigid one, given that Great Britain couldn't get the Little Entente to stay in existence, couldn't prevent the reoccupation of the Saar or remilitarization of the Rhineland, or the Anschluss, or the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.

What a pity you take the self-serving words of a racist paranoiac megalomaniac at face value.

And yet you berate the rest of us for heeding British propaganda....

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
Etchy, I was trying to find again the article about Jewish opposition to America joining the war against Germany prior to 1917, and found this exchange in a leftist blog:

So apart from 'Mein Kampf', is there any evidence you've ever read a book or original historical sources, as opposed to reading blogs, Holocaust denial websites and watching television programmes ?

A blog, Leftist or otherwise, is not the same as a well-researched piece of history.

Still, research doesn't appear to be your strong point.

Let's see your 'research' on Poland's pre-1939 Jewish population and its disposition.

Or, as I've asked countless times before (it feels), for your 'research' on the supposed reason for Great Britain declaring war on Imperial Germany in 1914- the competition for oil reserves in the Ottoman Middle East.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
This is also interesting. Taken from a speech by one Benjamen Friedman in 1961:

"World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.

Within two years Germany had won that war: not only won it nominally, but won it actually.

Except as I've demonstrated at length, with facts figures and quotes, Germany had done nothing of the sort.

The reason Germany resumed unrestricted submarine warfare was because the Allied naval blockade was working- hurting the German population at home.

They had to eat food normally given to cattle and the fertility of German soil did not return to 1913-1914 levels until well after the end of WWI.

The Allies instituted the use of Q-ships and the convoy system.

But what do you have to offer against this ?

Oh my, surprise, surprise. Another anti-Semitic website.

Jew Watch is a website that claims to “report accurate information regarding Jewish ownership and control over mass media and politics”, and describes its objective as “Keeping a Close Watch on Jewish Communities & Organizations Worldwide.”

The website is owned and maintained by Frank Weltner of St. Louis, Missouri. The Southern Poverty Law Center maintains that Weltner is a member of the National Alliance, a white nationalist and white supremacist organization; Weltner does not deny this.

Jew Watch also has a large list of names of celebrities and historical figures which it claims are Jewish or of Jewish descent -- for example, it claims that individuals such as Joseph Stalin, Dwight David Eisenhower, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Winston Churchillwere Jewish.

More 'reliable' history from 'Jew Watch' :

Claims on Jew Watch include: the United States is ruled by a Jewish-Occupied Government, that Communism is a Jewish plot (based on the evidence that Karl Marx was Jewish) to enslave the world, and that Jews control the world finance system and control the American and world media.

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/antizionism/jewwatch.htm

You sad little man.

[Ecthy]

Now I want to see sources as to:

- the quick rise in Jewish possession of German service sector as a result of the economic crisis.
- figures from before the crisis
- an explanation where they all came from, those German Jews: were they all highly educated but unemployed before? did they come from Eastern Europe? in that case they wouldn't have spoken German properly, a key condition to be successful on the German service sector.

[Arrian]

Jew Watch, Ned?

A new low, even for you. NYE pegged you perfectly. And you had the balls to get indignant about it.

-Arrian

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned

This is also interesting.

Yes, but apart from being the ravings of anti-Jewish whackjob, not for the reasons you think.

I've briefly mentioned one glaring error, with regards to the position of the British and the Germans in 1917.

Let's have a closer look at some of the other 'facts':

Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.

Well, he's missed out Japan, China, Portugal, Bulgaria and Italy for starters.

The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean.

Hmm. Let's see what Germans were saying:

'...all our calculations as regards the submarine war are false.'

Matthias Erzberger, leader of the Catholic Centre Party 6th July 1917 in a speech on a debate on war credits.

Further:

'...we must do everything possible to find a way which favours the conclusion of a peace this year. '

In August 1917, mutinies broke out in the German navy's capital ships moored at Wilhelmshaven.

Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany.

Really ? Who were those Russians and French who had crossed the border then ? Crepes and blinis salesmen ?

The Battle of Gumbinnen took place in East Prussia. That's East Prussia in Germany, not East Prussia in Narnia.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/maps/gr...prussia1914_2_(1600).jpg

Prittwitz, panicked by the effectiveness of the Russian counter-attack, and concerned that Samsonov's advancing southern Second Army would combine to envelop Eighth Army - despite Rennenkampf's apparent unwillingness to pursue his foe - ordered a general withdrawal to the River Vistula - effectively conceding the entire Russian invasion of East Prussia.

And on the Western Front ?

Joffre began his campaign by pushing the French 1st and 2nd armies against the German left, into the provinces of Alsace and Lorriane, forfeited as part of the peace settlement in 1871. By August 18th he realised that the German right was swinging north of the Meuse.

'The Shock of Battle', from 'The First World War' by Hew Strachan.

You might find it more 'accessible' in internet form:

Western Front
Belgium: Germans occupy Tirlemont.

Lorraine: French advance and cut line between Metz and Strasbourg at Saarburg.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/onthisday/1914_08_18.htm

Well, that's just the start of his mistakes. Who were some of the people useful in Imperial Germany's war effort ?

Walther Rathenau: on 9th August 1914 he was placed in charge control and organisation of raw materials for war production. He was President of the Allgemeine Elektrizitätsgesellschaft - or A.E.G. for short, electronics and public utilities provider.

Baron Gerson von Bleichroeder: he helped Bismarck secure loans for the war against Austria after Bismarck failed to persuade the Prussian parliament to fund his campaign.

Bismarck then directed Bleichroeder to negotiate the war indemnity incurred by France after defeat in the Franco-Prussian War.

Fritz Haber:

By 1905 Fritz Haber (1868–1934) had reached the objective long sought by chemists of fixing nitrogen from air. Using high pressure and a catalyst, he directly reacted nitrogen gas, which was generated by the Linde process, and hydrogen gas to create ammonia. The process was soon scaled up by BASF's great chemist and engineer Carl Bosch—hence the name "Haber-Bosch" process. The nitric acid produced from the ammonia was then used to manufacture agricultural fertilizers as well as explosives.

After World War I, Haber was remarkably successful in building up his institute, but in 1933 the anti-Jewish decrees of the Nazi regime made his position untenable.

http://www.chemheritage.org/classroom/chemach/gases/haber.html

All Germans, all patriots, all Jews.

Rathenau reaped the reward of his patriotism by being assassinated by disgruntled Rightists after the end of the war.

Haber was rejected by Nazi Germany, and died abroad.

A German patriot:

[Fake Boris]

I hope this will never end. It's simply awesome

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
I hope this will never end. It's simply awesome

the thread title is a bit misleading though.

[Ned]

Originally posted by ElTigre
Now tell us what would have happened in your opinion in "Germany's back yard" (Eastern Europe, if I understand your analogy correctly) after 1939 if the West would have given Hitler free hand.

[I'll reply tomorrow]

I think Hilter would have, at a minimum, undid Versailles to the East. His popularity in Germany depended upon his success in unravelling this treaty. Whether he could have taken the rest of Poland like he did Czechoslovakia without losing support in Germany is another question altogether. That would go well beyond the what the German or Austrian Empires or claimed.

Without opposition from Briton or France, there would have been no pact with the USSR. Stalin entered that pack specifically to allow Hitler a free hand in Poland, but also to ensare Hitler in a war with Briton and France. If he could not count on Briton and France DOWing Germany, he may have been reluctant to remove the Polish buffer between German borders and Soviet borders. Moreover, Hitler may not have wanted that pact because he would not be facing a two front war without it.

Assuming no pact, the Nazi's and Soviets go to war with each other for some pretextual reason within a few years. As before, if the Soviets are given adequate support, they win. But whether Briton or the US would be supportive is another question altogether.

If the Nazi's win, they have a major problem. They will be occuppying a hostile land with commies all over the place shooting at Germans. Eventually, the Germans would have to withraw. I think it would cause the overthrow if the Nazi regime similar to the fall of communism due, in large part, to the fisco of Afganistan.

[Ned]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Yes, but apart from being the ravings of anti-Jewish whackjob, not for the reasons you think.

Benjamen Friedman, the author of the speech, is himself Jewish. I suspect he has it in for the Zionists. But clearly he was once an insider as he was at the Versailles conference representing Jews.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
Jew Watch, Ned?

A new low, even for you. NYE pegged you perfectly. And you had the balls to get indignant about it.

-Arrian

This is utterly ridiculous. One of the things about freedom of speech is the ability to look at the views and opinions of all parties, no matter how radical, to seek the truth. What, are you afraid of that you might get contaiminated by differing views and opinions?

[Ned]

Molly, the point of quoting from the Friedman speech is that American Jews apparently tried to keep the US out of the war (WWI) because they didn't want the US to side with the Russians. This changed at some point. I had read before that it changed when Russia withdrew from the war. But Friedman contends that the change was due to the British agreement to make Palestine a Jewish homeland.

It would be interesting to explore this topic in depth as I have no idea at this point which version is correct. But I have always wondered just why president Wilson switched from being opposed to getting the US involved in the European War to being an advocate. The resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare never seemed to be an adequate explanation.

Perhaps this whole line should better be in the WWI, Why America thread.

The Friedman piece is also interesting on the point of German Jews also changing their views on the war. It could be that they changed when Russia dropped out, which is quite understandable. But it would be interesting to seen whether the timing of the change occurred before that, when the Brits gave the Zionests the Balfour declaration, for example.

[Ecthy]

Ned, you at least should be aware of the possibility to lose all your credibility if you link to sites that list "Tionist Occupied Governments". That is all just total bull****. It's always interesting to reveal new details or put emphasis on things neglected beforehand. But when it doesn't fit into the greater pattern (which I tried to explain to you above) then these revolutionary details should be questioned twice. And without evidence, revisionism of whatever sort cannot make any sense at all. The statements about Jews that you cited from that obviously anti-semitic page (may this notion carry less negative judgement on your behalf than from us) are totally contradictional to the way we perceive political processes in the west, AND they lack evidence. Why should anyone grown up in western culture accept such statements?