Copenhagen part 3

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kid, acid? I don't need acid.. I've breached the gates of insanity without it.

Well you can't know what it is like to go to the other side, if you have always been there.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kid, acid? I don't need acid.. I've breached the gates of insanity without it.

But you won't have opened the Doors of Perception and caressed the textures of Heaven and Hell.

[Pekka]

Kid, I wouldn't put it like that either. I noticed the distinct feeling when I left the normal world. I knew it, because you get this very strong feeling of, "there is no returning back", and that is because of that feeling. You know right then that there is no turning back because you will remember this feeling. It is impossible to erase. Surely you can step back, if you can, but you can't erase that moment and thus you know you've stepped across the line and you know what it is, and that's why you can never be really mundane, boring and normal again. Normal people do not know the feeling and they will never have that realization.

The realization is a bit scary for most people who go utterly insane. It's a bit different to think 'this is insane' and 'I KNOW I am insane now'. But I embrace it. Why be afraid of it, I like it.

And it's not.. it's not a chemical imbalance type of thing, like a real clinical insanity. It's the realization, a strong changed discourse. It's when all what you know turns into things you thought you knew. It's not a cumulative situation where you just know more, it's a situation where you know you don't know much, except that the stuff you used to know is BS. And that since the world is built on this same BS, you will no longer be part of it.

You realize we live in a very monotonous world. But not because it is like that, but because we choose to do so. It's not a situation where people choose that because they want it, it's because we don't know much else, so we do what we know, and that strengthens the very monotonous world we live in, and it gets more difficult or even impossible to change it because of that every single day as we define ourselves and the world around us with the same few abstractions we manage to think. So we have to go through with it, but we are also to blame.

It has been set up for us before we were born, few revolutions changes some things, ways of thinking, the body of knowledge. To me, insanity is to know multiple variations and new abstractions, and yet forced to have an existance in monotonous one. So you step outside that, and you become an antropologist of sort. You start to see other people as animals. Weird little things, simple minded, easy to follow, but dreadfully boring. Predictable. Stupid.

It is frustrating really. You explain an abstraction to someone, and they go like 'uhmm' and nodding and stuff, but you understand they really do not understand what you just explained. They can not derive any implications of it, any options or possibilities, just struggling with a basic concept. That usually is, because they have never trained their brain to think anything else than formalized information, and usually even that is a struggle for most.

So even in professional world, you have to then break it down to known terms, simplify it and almost rape the idea by trivializing it and then it's like OK I get a part of this, thanks. No... **** you! Why don't you give yourself some respect and try to figure it out. Don't give up. This isn't like instant coffee, you make it, you drink it and that's it. And sometimes it takes a year or two, and someone then comes up with only partial information on your original idea you told them, and they're like wooaah. No, **** you. You would have gotten this way earlier, and you'd get even more of this if you had struggled a bit. But you didn't want to. You don't want to struggle with your thoughts. Can't be bothered. So **** you.

[Sirotnikov]

Pekka, you're awesome

I'd vote for you as best newcomer of 2006 in the hall of fame

[Sirotnikov]

Reading up more on the thread - one doesn't have to take substances to appreciate doors music to its fullest.

It puts you in a trance mood no matter what.
Assuming you take the time to get to that.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
one doesn't have to take substances to appreciate doors music to its fullest.

You've done both?

[Sirotnikov]

i did my share of alcohol
i can do without as well

[Kidlicious]

Good for you

[Pekka]

And here's the part that really gets me. I know, no one asked, but I'm still going to say it.

As I've stated, humans are fairly simple beings, predictable and monotonous, as the world around us is projected from the participants, in this case humans mostly and we understand it through these concepts.

Now, what really gets me is that the nature in itself is more complex. Nature should be less complex. But this isn't the case, we do understand it, or a bit of it, or even a great deal, but we still can not appreciate the complexity in it. We think humans are so complex, and nature is not. I think the exact opposite. The nature is very complex, humans are not. We're just little ants, inhabiting this place for a while. We'll be gone some day as well.

So, as people try to predict nature, and I'm not talking about global warming, but in general.. we're pretty good at that. Or how good are we, can't really tell. But from our point of view and with our measurements, we're pretty good at the basic interpretation of it, at least in our terms.

So why can't we understand ourselves then? If we are more simple, why can't we understand it? It would be logical to determine that perhaps we are more complex then but I disagree with that notion. It's like... you think the things you thought as a kid, you thought oyu knew so much, and now you take that and think well that was ****ing stupid. So, you add a new layer to your knowledge and your perception changes with every new layer.. you gain more depth. So as you are piling up the layers with more experince and knowledge, you're going in cycles, right?

An example, I go from 'war is uncivilized' into 'war is very civilized'. Depends what layer I have added lately. It's a cycle. From the very raw poitn of view, war is pure. It's real, it's something that has truth effects. Then you add another layer, well, war is still ugly and the resort of idiots. And then you add another one and then another one, the nature of the concept changes from one to another.

Bigger frameworks have little less of a shift but individual concepts can be very polarized. So you figure how the hell do you know which is which, you can take either side and convince yourself both of them. I mean, humans have become pussies, really. In most of the 1st world countries, we are pussies. Someone killing a chicken for food makes us sick. What the hell is that? These are basic things, what, we are out of touch from the reality so much we can't cope with it? Animals fighting each other and we like hate some of these animals for it? So common sense, we have become pussies, some of us. Is that civil? When we become too civil, the edge of dropping into total chaos is near, because we have disarmed our natural instincts from ourselves. Kind of like Rome, but with other terms.

So the point is, it goes in cycles, depends what layer is on top. So what I try to avoid doing is .. I don't want to find a formula of people. From nature, sure. But if humans are less complex, I should be able to find that formula in the network that humans form. But that formula is bound to fail, as it has to change all the time. So I have to ask myself, do we really know much at all? Or do we just try to understand the current situation with the tools we have, and is that reality? What is reality to an ant? It differs from our reality. We just go in cycles, trying to claim to know stuff, but we don't know anything. So you have to distance yourself from it, because if you try to think you know, you're either wrong or in road to madness.

[ZEE]

Pekka,

I myself have a brush with the insane. in everyday life i struggle to find that purpose, that desire, that drive to become ONE. My mind races like a sportscar in overdrive, with no breaks... flying down the road in the opposite direction. People CLAIM to understand me, but my diagnoses is in the books, in the record, and locked away with a key. Im the real deal. Certifiably INSANE. Doctors claim i have this or i have that, and i take pills and i listed to councilors, and i do their silly tricks... but to what extent? to what method do i finally break from my madness. You can probably tell from my posting style that there is DEFINATELY some screws loose in the engine... but WHERE?!? WHERE are my screws loose and how the hell did they fit to begin with. I am so far gone down that road... PEKKA... that i doubt that ANYONE including myself can repair me. Like when humpdy dumpdy fell and his ass was grass. Thats how I feel most of the time.

To stay on topic i fealt for those anarchists. i KNOW and have LIVED down that road of APATHY and STRUGGLE. i know what it is like to look at the world and think... **** YOU!!! just **** YOU!! DONT YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!? but they dont Pekka... they DONT know who i am, and that is the sad part. all my accomplishments and for WHAT?!? WHY have i, and why AM i punishing myself? just like the anarchists who lost the cause and were trounced by police... is the direction my life was headed. I turned it around. they could have turned it around too... if they would have just for one iota "GAVE" a damn! just GIVE a little bit of a ****ing damn about life for one day, and the miracles that will occur would have astonished them

Pekka i can relate to you. i have the same MIND. I feel the same PAIN. i can go off on loony tangents like YOU can. people claim im stupid, a DOLT... but they really dont understand just how much im holding back because half the time... I dont give a damn. so to all the haters... PEKKA... to all those that dont understand... i say... to each his own

PIECE!

[Pekka]

aahz, well that depends if there is anything to repair. I don't necessarily agree with the psychiatry of today in all counts. It depends, there are some things I would consider that would need to be repaired, like illusions, schizophrenia , like voice inside head and visions that are not real. I figure those are something that needs to be treated and are legit stuff. Of course depression and other things I consider to be legit things as well.

However, some of the things I do not consider to be illnesses or insanity. It's mostly a way to categorize people, you have this, you have that, we'll call you this and here's a pill for you. Unless you're having some serious illusions, I just don't consider a person to be insane, medically.

The reasons why you would be punishing yourselves can be unknown. Many people, especially in the west punish themselves what can be derived from protestant ethics. It's coded deep into us, it's mostly our strong values and morals, if you don't live up to that, you'd punish yourself beucase you're not living up to the standard. It would be a mistake to punish yourself.

yeah, each to their own, I really don't think we should be telling people how to live, what to do, what their values and morals should be, as long as you don't go and hurt someone. As long as I don't interfere someone else, I'm doing good. We should all mind our own business. I don't like the way ideals, ideologies and values are pushed to people. It's a way to mold people and create reality, but it's really just a tool of power. We should respect people to have their own opinions and if we do that, we should respect the people enough to let them do what they want, as long as they're not hurting us. An individual is the greatest minority, and we should protect that.

[laurentius]

I feel love in the air

[ZEE]

Pekka,

you have just successfully named my diagnoses in your first paragraph. Thats what all the doctors claim i have and i have taken countless pills to help... but for WHAT?! WHY am i a human science experiment?! I have wanted to give up on so many occasions. just say **** it. You win. I cant fight this anymore. the pain and agony i suffer through is mind numming and unexplainable. Lots of people with my disease claim they have this talent or that talent but i have no super-ability. im just an everyday unlucky schmoe with a disease. i fully admit that. and now we talk about morals...

i am a christian. i not always WAS a christian however. i actually was a pagan and was involved in some pretty bizzare stuff in my younger years... but now i have standards. a CODE to live by. sometimes... naw ALL the time i check my actions vs my standards and i ask myself... is this right?! am i ****ing up here or what?! but i get no answer. no voices. just incredible... SILENCE! my senses are VERY aware... PEKKA... i hear things FAR away. Im paranoid about all sorts of ****... but i struggle and maintain. i can help others that have my problem. i can teach. i can definately learn. and one thing ive learned in my hellish life... PEKKA... is to keep an open heart...

[Pekka]

yeah well.. it doesn't really matter if you can cope with what you have. You can't be really strong unless you know yourself.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by AAHZ
Pekka,

you have just successfully named my diagnoses in your first paragraph. Thats what all the doctors claim i have and i have taken countless pills to help... but for WHAT?! WHY am i a human science experiment?! I have wanted to give up on so many occasions. just say **** it. You win. I cant fight this anymore. the pain and agony i suffer through is mind numming and unexplainable. Lots of people with my disease claim they have this talent or that talent but i have no super-ability. im just an everyday unlucky schmoe with a disease. i fully admit that. and now we talk about morals...

i am a christian. i not always WAS a christian however. i actually was a pagan and was involved in some pretty bizzare stuff in my younger years... but now i have standards. a CODE to live by. sometimes... naw ALL the time i check my actions vs my standards and i ask myself... is this right?! am i ****ing up here or what?! but i get no answer. no voices. just incredible... SILENCE! my senses are VERY aware... PEKKA... i hear things FAR away. Im paranoid about all sorts of ****... but i struggle and maintain. i can help others that have my problem. i can teach. i can definately learn. and one thing ive learned in my hellish life... PEKKA... is to keep an open heart...

AAHZ

Very respectable. If you really can live by the code. The Christ' way is the way...