Israeli Politics: Rotten to the Core!

[Sirotnikov]

You know Moby - that's what I always disliked about you.


Not only do you can't stop yourself from trolling, instead of honestly speaking your mind -you do it with a condescending attitude and with such foaming from your mouth...

And you can't keep from making constant ad hominem attacks, bashing your conversation adversaries.

Sure its fun to call you a dumb biggot once in a while, but I'm tired of it. Grow up. You're probably the worst adolescent on the forum.

[Kuciwalker]

Why do you respond to him? I honestly don't understand why people pay attention; I have him on ignore and the forum is much more intelligent and pleasant without him.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
You know Moby - that's what I always disliked about you.


Not only do you can't stop yourself from trolling, instead of honestly speaking your mind -you do it with a condescending attitude and with such foaming from your mouth...

And you can't keep from making constant ad hominem attacks, bashing your conversation adversaries.

Sure its fun to call you a dumb biggot once in a while, but I'm tired of it. Grow up. You're probably the worst adolescent on the forum.

BTW, have a Chag Sameach, and remember one should drink till one cant tell Haman from Mordechai.

[dannubis]

What does it exactly mean, being a zionist ?

I think i already heard like 50 definitions of it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by dannubis
What does it exactly mean, being a zionist ?

I think i already heard like 50 definitions of it.

short answer - Someone who believes that the Jews had a right to a state in the area of the historic "land of Israel"

Folks who believed the Jews should settle the land of Israel and establish a Hebrew speaking society there, but shouldnt necessarily attempt to attain statehood (Achad Ha Am at certain points, Martin Buber at certain points) are in a grey area, but are usually called Zionists.

Being a Zionist does NOT mean favoring any particular set of boundaries for said state. Except to ultra-right wingers who are interested in denying that moderates are "true Zionists" and to anti-Zionists who want to make all Zionists look like ultra rightwingers. Not an uncommon sort of linguistic alliance - think of "socialist" - anti-socialists would insist that all true socialists are communists, and so would communists. Anti-Christians sometimesinsist all true Christians are fundies, and so do some fundies. Etc, etc.

[dannubis]

Thank you, makes sense now...

Now a more practical question, as a moderate you are not advocating a Jewish state. How would / could you see that working ?

This is not a trap btw, I am honestly curious about what kind of solutions the more moderate people deem attainable.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by dannubis
Thank you, makes sense now...

Now a more practical question, as a moderate you are not advocating a Jewish state.

Excuse me? Im not sure what you mean. Most Zionists never advocated a state where Jewish religious law was state law. The current religious status quo in Israel is a result of compromise between secular Zionists and religious elements (not all of whom were Zionist BTW) Secular Zionists are not more moderate in their Zionism per se because they are secular. WHen they meant a Jewish state, they meant a state that would be a place of refuge for the Jewish people, a place where Jewish culture (including much more than religion) would thrive, and a place where Jews as a people would exercise sovereignty. You seem to forget that both in the Jewish religion, and in the views of the 19th century and early 20th cent secularists who largely started Zionism, "a Jew" was not restricted to believers in the Jewish religion. Jew is not analagous to Christian or Muslim. Its closer, maybe, to Sikh or Hindu, a religio-cultural-ethnic identity.

Note of course it happens that MANY of the religious Zionists (though not all) did end up being extremists on questions of territory. There are a number of reasons for this.

So yes, I do advocate a Jewish state. One where Jews have a right to flee in times of need (whether the Law of Return should be modified in certain particulars - for example to give Jews who are NOT in a time of need, and are who not close to Israeli/Jewish culture no higher a place in line than non-Jews, is another matter) I also think that Israel should continue to have Jewish national symbols, and govt offices should close on Jewish holidays, etc. I think issues of fair treatment for Israeli arabs, notably issues wrt funding housing and infrastructure in Arab villages, need to be addressed, and that this will be to the benefit of all Israelis. I think the power of the Orthodox religious establishment should be lessened, for the benefit of the Jewish religion as well as for the benefit of the state, but I dont necessarily demand a wall of seperation. I think Israel should withdraw from most of the West Bank in exchange for an end to the conflict - and that one of the benefits of that will be that Israel will retain its Jewish majority, and I dont think its racist for Israel to seek that end.

[Sirotnikov]

i agree with LOTM about the definition of zionist.

[Sirotnikov]

I also think that Israel should continue to have Jewish national symbols, and govt offices should close on Jewish holidays, etc. I think issues of fair treatment for Israeli arabs, notably issues wrt funding housing and infrastructure in Arab villages, need to be addressed, and that this will be to the benefit of all Israelis. I think the power of the Orthodox religious establishment should be lessened, for the benefit of the Jewish religion as well as for the benefit of the state

I think Israel should withdraw from most of the West Bank in exchange for an end to the conflict - and that one of the benefits of that will be that Israel will retain its Jewish majority, and I dont think its racist for Israel to seek that end.

[Sirotnikov]

You seem to forget that both in the Jewish religion, and in the views of the 19th century and early 20th cent secularists who largely started Zionism, "a Jew" was not restricted to believers in the Jewish religion. Jew is not analagous to Christian or Muslim. Its closer, maybe, to Sikh or Hindu, a religio-cultural-ethnic identity.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


No, he means you dont understand my position wrt the West Bank and Gaza.

what is it?

Anyway, I don't know Mobius. I kind of know everyone hates him and think he's racist, antisemitic etc, but don't know his views. Anyone would enlighten me why is he so evil?
I haven't studies this thread in detail, but the israeli politician in question indeed does not seem a nice person, right? So why do You spend your time bashing Mobius instead of that Arab-hater?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


what is it?

Anyway, I don't know Mobius. I kind of know everyone hates him and think he's racist, antisemitic etc, but don't know his views. Anyone would enlighten me why is he so evil?
I haven't studies this thread in detail, but the israeli politician in question indeed does not seem a nice person, right? So why do You spend your time bashing Mobius instead of that Arab-hater?

You must be confusing me with someone else, as I haven't bashed Mobius in this thread.

He however has attacked me personally in several posts in this thread alone.

[Heresson]

Oh, the second part of my post wasn't adressed to You, personally, but to the general public. The first one was, though, so please reply

[Elok]

I was barely even aware of his antisemitism. I always thought of him as "that unpleasant fellow who masturbates furiously to the Iraq casualty reports each morning."

[dannubis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Excuse me? Im not sure what you mean. Most Zionists never advocated a state where Jewish religious law was state law. The current religious status quo in Israel is a result of compromise between secular Zionists and religious elements (not all of whom were Zionist BTW) Secular Zionists are not more moderate in their Zionism per se because they are secular. WHen they meant a Jewish state, they meant a state that would be a place of refuge for the Jewish people, a place where Jewish culture (including much more than religion) would thrive, and a place where Jews as a people would exercise sovereignty. You seem to forget that both in the Jewish religion, and in the views of the 19th century and early 20th cent secularists who largely started Zionism, "a Jew" was not restricted to believers in the Jewish religion. Jew is not analagous to Christian or Muslim. Its closer, maybe, to Sikh or Hindu, a religio-cultural-ethnic identity.

Note of course it happens that MANY of the religious Zionists (though not all) did end up being extremists on questions of territory. There are a number of reasons for this.

So yes, I do advocate a Jewish state. One where Jews have a right to flee in times of need (whether the Law of Return should be modified in certain particulars - for example to give Jews who are NOT in a time of need, and are who not close to Israeli/Jewish culture no higher a place in line than non-Jews, is another matter) I also think that Israel should continue to have Jewish national symbols, and govt offices should close on Jewish holidays, etc. I think issues of fair treatment for Israeli arabs, notably issues wrt funding housing and infrastructure in Arab villages, need to be addressed, and that this will be to the benefit of all Israelis. I think the power of the Orthodox religious establishment should be lessened, for the benefit of the Jewish religion as well as for the benefit of the state, but I dont necessarily demand a wall of seperation. I think Israel should withdraw from most of the West Bank in exchange for an end to the conflict - and that one of the benefits of that will be that Israel will retain its Jewish majority, and I dont think its racist for Israel to seek that end.

Sorry, I meant expansion of Israel into the occupied territories: as a state or not.

You shed some light on this I must say. Thanks again.