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Is it idolatry to have a mental image of God?

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  • #16
    Byzantine iconoclasm




    What accounts of iconoclast arguments remain are largely found in iconodule writings. To understand iconoclastic arguments, one must note the main points:

    Iconoclasm condemned the making of any lifeless image (e.g. painting or statue) that was intended to represent Jesus or one of the saints. The Epitome of the Definition of the Iconoclastic Conciliabulum held in 754 declared:
    "Supported by the Holy Scriptures and the Fathers, we declare unanimously, in the name of the Holy Trinity, that there shall be rejected and removed and cursed one of the Christian Church every likeness which is made out of any material and colour whatever by the evil art of painters.... If anyone ventures to represent the divine image (χαρακτήρ, charaktēr) of the Word after the Incarnation with material colours, let him be anathema! .... If anyone shall endeavour to represent the forms of the Saints in lifeless pictures with material colours which are of no value (for this notion is vain and introduced by the devil), and does not rather represent their virtues as living images in himself, let him be anathema!"

    For iconoclasts, the only real religious image must be an exact likeness of the prototype -of the same substance- which they considered impossible, seeing wood and paint as empty of spirit and life. Thus for iconoclasts the only true (and permitted) "icon" of Jesus was the Eucharist, which was believed to be his actual body and blood.
    Any true image of Jesus must be able to represent both his divine nature (which is impossible because it cannot be seen nor encompassed) and his human nature (which is possible). But by making an icon of Jesus, one is separating his human and divine natures, since only the human can be depicted (separating the natures was considered nestorianism), or else confusing the human and divine natures, considering them one (union of the human and divine natures was considered monophysitism).
    Icon use for religious purposes was viewed as an innovation in the Church, a Satanic misleading of Christians to return to pagan practice.
    "Satan misled men, so that they worshipped the creature instead of the Creator. The Law of Moses and the Prophets cooperated to remove this ruin...But the previously mentioned demiurge of evil...gradually brought back idolatry under the appearance of Christianity." [20]

    It was also seen as a departure from ancient church tradition, of which there was a written record opposing religious images.
    The chief theological opponents of iconoclasm were the monks Mansur (John of Damascus), who, living in Muslim territory as advisor to the Caliph of Damascus, was far enough away from the Byzantine emperor to evade retribution, and Theodore the Studite, abbot of the Stoudios monastery in Constantinople.

    John declared that he did not venerate matter, "but rather the creator of matter." However he also declared, "But I also venerate the matter through which salvation came to me, as if filled with divine energy and grace." He includes in this latter category the ink in which the gospels were written as well as the paint of images, the wood of the Cross, and the body and blood of Jesus.

    The iconodule response to iconoclasm included:

    Assertion that the biblical commandment forbidding images of God had been superseded by the incarnation of Jesus, who, being the second person of the Trinity, is God incarnate in visible matter. Therefore, they were not depicting the invisible God, but God as He appeared in the flesh. This became an attempt to shift the issue of the incarnation in their favor, whereas the iconoclasts had used the issue of the incarnation against them.
    Further, in their view idols depicted persons without substance or reality while icons depicted real persons. Essentially the argument was "all religious images not of our faith are idols; all images of our faith are icons to be venerated." This was considered comparable to the Old Testament practice of only offering burnt sacrifices to God, and not to any other gods.
    Regarding the written tradition opposing the making and veneration of images, they asserted that icons were part of unrecorded oral tradition (parádosis, sanctioned in Orthodoxy as authoritative in doctrine by reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Basil the Great, etc.).
    Arguments were drawn from the miraculous Acheiropoieta, the supposed icon of the Virgin painted with her approval by St Luke, and other miraculous occurrences around icons, that demonstrated divine approval of Iconodule practices.
    Iconodules further argued that decisions such as whether icons ought to be venerated were properly made by the church assembled in council, not imposed on the church by an emperor. Thus the argument also involved the issue of the proper relationship between church and state. Related to this was the observation that it was foolish to deny to God the same honor that was freely given to the human emperor.
    Emperors had always intervened in ecclesiastical matters since the time of Constantine I. As Cyril Mango writes,

    "The legacy of Nicaea, the first universal council of the Church, was to bind the emperor to something that was not his concern, namely the definition and imposition of orthodoxy, if need be by force" [16]

    That practice continued from beginning to end of the Iconoclastic controversy and beyond, with some emperors enforcing iconoclasm, and two empresses regent enforcing the re-establishment of icon veneration. One distinction between the iconoclastic emperors and Constantine I is that the latter did not dictate the conclusion of the First Council of Nicaea before summoning it, whereas Leo III began enforcing a policy of iconoclasm more than twenty years before the Council of Hieria would endorse it.
    Second council of Nicea (last ecumenical council)



    The Second Council of Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council of Christianity; it met in 787 AD in Nicaea (site of the First Council of Nicaea) to restore the honoring of icons (or, holy images), which had been suppressed by imperial edict inside the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Leo III (717 - 741). His son, Constantine V (741 - 775), had held a synod to make the suppression official.

    Although the veneration of icons had been finally abolished by the energetic measures of Constantine V and the Council of Hieria. These iconoclastic tendencies were shared by his son, Leo IV. After the latter's early death, his widow Irene, as regent for her son, began its restoration, moved thereto by personal inclination and political considerations.

    When, in 784, the imperial secretary Patriarch Tarasius was appointed successor to the Patriarch Paul IV, he accepted on the condition that intercommunion with the other churches should be reestablished; that is, that the images should be restored. However, a council, claiming to be ecumenical, had abolished the veneration of icons, so another ecumenical council was necessary for its restoration. Pope Adrian I was invited to participate, and gladly accepted. However, the invitation intended for the oriental patriarchs could not even be delivered to them. The Roman legates were an archbishop and an abbot, each named Peter.

    In 786, the council met in the Church of the Apostles in Constantinople. However, soldiers in collusion with the opposition entered the church, and broke up the assembly. As a result, the government resorted to a stratagem. Under the pretext of a campaign, the iconoclastic bodyguard was sent away from the capital — disarmed and disbanded.

    The council was again summoned to meet, this time in Nicaea, since Constantinople was still distrusted. The council assembled on September 24, 787. It numbered about 350 members; 308 bishops or their representatives signed. Tarasius presided, and seven sittings were held in Nicaea. Proof of the lawfulness of the veneration of icons was drawn from Ex. xxv.17 sqq.; Num. vii. 89; Heb. ix. 1 sqq.; Ezek. xli., and Gen. xxxi. 34, but especially from a series of passages of the Church Fathers; the authority of the latter was decisive.

    It was determined that "As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone — for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented."

    The clear distinction between the adoration offered to God, and that accorded to the images may well be looked upon as a result of the iconoclastic reform. The twenty-two canons[1] drawn up in Constantinople also served ecclesiastical reform. Careful maintenance of the ordinances of the earlier councils, knowledge of the scriptures on the part of the clergy, and care for Christian conduct are required, and the desire for a renewal of ecclesiastical life is awakened.

    The papal legates voiced their approval of the restoration of the veneration of icons in no uncertain terms, and the patriarch sent a full account of the proceedings of the council to Pope Adrian I, who had it translated (the translation Anastasius later replaced with a better one).

    This council is celebrated in the Eastern Orthodox Church as "The Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy" each year on the first Sunday of Great Lent, the fast that leads up to Easter.
    I need a foot massage

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    • #17
      Originally posted by -Jrabbit
      This thread is sophistry, not philosphy.
      -Jrabbit, meet aneeshm.
      Eventis is the only refuge of the spammer. Join us now.
      Long live teh paranoia smiley!

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      • #18
        Re: Is it idolatry to have a mental image of God?

        Eh, there are pictures of me on facebook but I don't consider them idolatrous.

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        • #19
          Re: Is it idolatry to have a mental image of God?

          Originally posted by aneeshm
          Is it idolatry to have a mental image of God?

          Because the moment you have that image, doesn't the object of your worship shift from God to the image you have of God?
          Obviously, not in Orthodoxy, seeing as we have icons for the express purpose of making the divine more accessible to man as a sense-oriented being. As long as it's understood that our image is not the real thing, there's no problem from our perspective.

          I'm curious as to how the anti-idolatry religions deal with this conundrum, because it's almost inevitable that a person will have an image of God in their mind, and will worship that image.

          If, on the other hand, you admit that there's nothing wrong with having a mental image as a tool or a symbol to represent God, then you should have no problem with Hinduism's concept of idols which are used as exactly the same thing, only as external images instead of internal ones.
          I concur, oddly enough, based on my understanding of Hindu idols. Our dislike of them is founded partly on ignorance of their similarity to our icons and partly on our theological differences, I think. A threefold God is one thing. Three millionfold, or however many facets of Brahman you folks have, is a bit much for us. Plus the part where atman = brahman, which isn't too different from theiosis but goes too much farther for our tastes.
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          • #20
            The answer depends on the religion involved.

            Some believe any image of God is idolatry.

            Others focus on the phrase "graven images," and conclude only statutes of God are prohibited.


            Personally, I believe God has a spiritual existence, not a physicial one. Therefore, any image of him -- even a mental one -- is incorrect.

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            • #21
              In my opinion, the mental image is just the reason why this commandment exists. On the other hand, humans can't do without (and having an image about behaviour or shape is almost the same). The problem is the same as with prejudices about humans: It tries to fix a person, or God, to what you think about him/her, and does not allow your opinion about him/her to adapt to what he/she is. In other words: The problem isn't so much the picture as it is the frame.

              Thus, the Commandment is a safeguard against fundamentalism.
              Why doing it the easy way if it is possible to do it complicated?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SlowwHand
                So many people have this concept of God the Avenger. I see God as the ultimate sense of humor.

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                • #23
                  I see God as the ultimate sense of humor.
                  After all He invented sex.

                  And what do people say about sex: "The motivation is suspect. The pleasure is transitory. And the position is ridiculous."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adalbertus
                    In my opinion, the mental image is just the reason why this commandment exists. On the other hand, humans can't do without (and having an image about behaviour or shape is almost the same). The problem is the same as with prejudices about humans: It tries to fix a person, or God, to what you think about him/her, and does not allow your opinion about him/her to adapt to what he/she is. In other words: The problem isn't so much the picture as it is the frame.

                    Thus, the Commandment is a safeguard against fundamentalism.
                    I think one can make a connection between the commandment andf the fact (or story) that at the time Moses got the commandments his tribesmen were making a golden statue of another god and worshipping it.

                    Therefore I think the commandment rather refers to things like statues (and perhaps even the Cross) or other material things being worshipped instead of an immaterial god (and therefore IMHO this commandment doesn´t cover any mental images you may have of god)
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                    • #25
                      God ordered the israelites to make statues of cherubines (a kind of angel, I am not sure how to write that in english) for the arch, and also of a snake, which Moses used to make water come out of the sand and stones.

                      Catholics use that as a proof that images are not wrong or forbidden, I think Jews explain that as images are forbidden, unless God tells you to make one, so those 2 cases would be exceptions.

                      If I recall correctly, later in the bible the israelites had started to worship the snake of Moses, so a king of Israe or Judah (I dont remember which one) ordered to destroy it
                      I need a foot massage

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