Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Son of Great Rabbi of Rome says it is true jews used gentile kids for pastry

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Son of Great Rabbi of Rome says it is true jews used gentile kids for pastry

    Now From the Jerusalem Post.


    Historian gives credence to blood libel
    By LISA PALMIERI-BILLIG
    ROME

    An Israeli historian of Italian origin has revived "blood libel" in an historical study set to hit Italian bookstores on Thursday. Ariel Toaff, son of Rabbi Elio Toaff, claims that there is some historic truth in the accusation that for centuries provided incentives for pogroms against Jews throughout Europe.

    Toaff's tome, Bloody Passovers: The Jews of Europe and Ritual Murders, received high praise from another Italian Jewish historian, Sergio Luzzatto, in an article in the Corriere della Serra daily entitled "Those Bloody Passovers."

    Luzzatto describes Toaff's work as a "magnificent book of history...Toaff holds that from 1100 to about 1500...several crucifixions of Christian children really happened, bringing about retaliations against entire Jewish communities - punitive massacres of men, women, children. Neither in Trent in 1475 nor in other areas of Europe in the late Middle Ages were Jews always innocent victims."

    "A minority of fundamentalist Ashkenazis...carried out human sacrifices," Luzzatto continued.

    Toaff offers as an example the case of Saint Simonino of Trent. In March 1475, shortly after a child's body was found in a canal near the Jewish area of Trent, the city's Jews were accused of murdering Simonino and using his blood to make matzot.

    After a medieval trial in which confessions were extracted by torture, 16 members of Trent's Jewish community were hanged.

    Toaff reveals that the accusations against the Jews of Trent "might have been true."

    Toaff refers to kabbalistic descriptions of the therapeutic uses of blood and asserts that "a black market flourished on both sides of the Alps, with Jewish merchants selling human blood, complete with rabbinic certification of the product - kosher blood."

    Dr. Amos Luzzatto, former president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities said, "I would expect a more serious statement than 'it might have been true.'" He also expressed dismay at the sensationalism with which Corriere della Sera, Italy's leading daily, treated the issue.

    "It is totally inappropriate to utilize declarations extorted under torture centuries ago to reconstruct bizarre and devious historical theses," declared 12 of Italy's chief rabbis in a press release refuting Toaff's claims.

    "The only blood spilled in these stories was that of so many innocent Jews, massacred on account of unjust and infamous accusations," the statement continued.

    The town of Trent, near the Austrian border, commemorated Simonino's "martyrdom" for five centuries, until, in 1965, the Vatican published the Nostra Aetate, which aimed at extirpating anti-Semitsm from Catholic doctrine. The Bishop of Trent signed a decree proclaiming that the blood libel against the city's Jews of that city was unfounded.

    Alessandro Martinelli, the Catholic Church's delegate for Interreligious Dialogue in the Diocese of Trent, recalls a well-documented DVD and historical monograph by historian Diego Quaglioni disproving Jewish responsibility for Simonino's death. A plaque the community had erected to mark the tragedy of the Jews who were martyred called for atonement and reconciliation between Catholics and Jews based on adherence to historical truth.

    To all this, Dr. Amos Luzzatto comments, "Even if the author should manage to prove that a deviant sect existed for centuries...clearly it could never be identified as a Jewish group, or as part of a Jewish community. This would be comparable to saying that the rabbis who were present at [Iranian President Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad's Holocaust Denial Conference in Teheran represent mainstream Judaism."
    ----------------



    Bar-Ilan to order professor to explain research behind blood libel book

    By Ofri Ilani, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

    Bar-Ilan University on Sunday said it would order Professor Ariel Toaff to explain the research behind his new book about the centuries-old charge that Jews killed Christians in ritual murder.

    University historian Toaff has raised a storm by alleging in his book book that some blood libels - accusations that Jews killed Christians in ritual murders to add their blood to matza and wine on Passover - may be based on real ceremonies in which the blood of Christians was actually used.

    The university said in a statement that "Bar-Ilan University - its officers and researchers - have condemned, and condemn, any attempt to justify the awful blood libels against Jews."

    The university said that as soon as Toaff returned from a trip abroad it would ask him for explanations regarding his research, adding "until then... we should refrain from relying on baseless reports that have been denied by Prof. Toaff himself and which, apparently, lack any connection to the research itself."

    "Pasque di Sangue" was just released in Italy. It shocked the country's small Jewish community - in part because he is the son of Elio Toaff, the chief rabbi who welcomed Pope John Paul II to Rome's synagogue two decades ago in a historic visit that helped ease Catholic-Jewish relations after centuries of tensions.

    The author, who is considered an international expert on Italian Jewry, delves into allegations that resulted in torture, show trials and executions, periodically devastating Europe's Jewish communities.

    Historians have long dismissed the allegations as racism, but blood libel stories remain popular in anti-Semitic literature.

    Jewish and Catholic scholars have denounced Toaff's work, saying he simply reinterpreted known documents - and has given credence to confessions extracted under torture.

    In an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa, Toaff responded angrily to his critics, saying, "My research shows that in the Middle Ages, a group of fundamentalist Jews did not respect the biblical prohibition and used blood for healing. It is just one group of Jews, who belonged to the communities that suffered the severest persecution during the Crusades. From this trauma came a passion for revenge that in some cases led to responses, among them ritual murder of Christian children."

    Italian rabbis issued a statement recalling that Jewish law has always banned ingesting blood or using it for rituals.

    Toaff's 91-year-old father said he was looking forward to reading his son's book and examining the documents, but stressed that according to the Torah and tradition, the consumption of animal blood was strictly prohibited, not to mention that of humans.

    In an interview Friday with The Associated Press, Toaff said, "There is no proof that Jews committed such an act." But he added that the confessions do hold some truth - as when the accused recount anti-Christian liturgies that were mainly used on Passover, when the Israelites' liberation from ancient Egypt became a metaphor for Judaism's hope for redemption from its suffering at the hands of Christians.

    "These liturgical formulas in Hebrew cannot be projections of the judges who could not know these prayers, which didn't belong to Italian rites but to the Ashkenazi tradition," he said.

    The 65-year-old Toaff, a rabbi who holds dual Italian and Israeli citizenship, said, "I wanted to see how the Jews felt in this climate of hatred."

    Monsignor Iginio Rogger, a church historian who in the 1960s led the investigation into the murder of a 2-year-old Simon of Trento, for which 16 Jews were hanged, said many scholars have concurred that the confessions were completely unreliable.

    "I wouldn't want to be in [Toaff's] shoes, answering for this to historians who have seriously documented this case," he said. "The judges used horrible tortures, to the point where the accused pleaded: 'Tell us what you want us to say.'"

    Hebrew University historian Professor Israel J. Yuval, a blood-libel expert, said, "From the information I have received, Professor Toaff's interpretation sounds trumped-up."

    The Anti-Defamation League chairman, Abe Foxman, said, "It's hard for me to believe that someone, especially an Israeli historian, would legitimize the baseless claims of the blood libels."

    Bar-Ilan University spokesman, Shmulik Algrabli, said, "Professor Toaff is one of the greatest scholars in his field, and we have confidence in his scientific method. The contentions of the study will be clarified when the author returns to Israel."
    I need a foot massage

  • #2
    "Luzzatto describes Toaff's work as a "magnificent book of history...Toaff holds that from 1100 to about 1500...several crucifixions of Christian children really happened, "

    Toaff has denied that he said that, apparently Luzzato misunderstood his work.

    Two arguments for the falsehood of the libel was A. Jews dont consume blood of any kind, its against biblical law and later halacha and B. All of the confessions were forced.

    What Toaff found was that A. In some obscure Kabbalistic texts, its mentioned that blood can be used medicinally. B. SOme of the confessions apparently included some yiddish versions of prayers that the interrogators couldnt have understood, so must have been genuine, ergo not EVERYTHING that came out of prisoners mouths was what the interrogators forced.


    There is still NO evidence that anyone DID use human blood in any way, let alone that anyone killed for it, and theres abundant evidence that the interrogations did use massive torture.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

    Comment


    • #3
      What a quick way of becoming famous, saying something outrageous.

      Now he will have to defend what he wrote and try to not look like an ass.
      I need a foot massage

      Comment


      • #4
        I think this is an interesting, though dangerous question.

        Were all Jews out to snatch Gentile babies and eat them? Obviously not. Was there ever a deviant subsect of Judaism which did do this (and whose deeds were afterwards amplified)? I don't know. There were a lot of weird belief groups in Europe during the middle ages. How much did the millenarianism and extremist theology of some elements of the Christian community affect the Jews living among them?

        It's a dangerous question because it might embolden some crypto-antisemites. I'm not certain it's something worth studying right now.
        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
        Stadtluft Macht Frei
        Killing it is the new killing it
        Ultima Ratio Regum

        Comment


        • #5
          meanwhile every antisemite everywhere will claim this as evidence that blood accusations are true. Do some googling, the antisemitic sites already have this, and they wont be citing any retractions or corrections.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

          Comment


          • #6
            On the other hand, this guy's book just sounds like sensationalist crap.

            Trying to separate out truth from fiction on this issue would be incredibly difficult.
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lord of the mark
              meanwhile every antisemite everywhere will claim this as evidence that blood accusations are true. Do some googling, the antisemitic sites already have this, and they wont be citing any retractions or corrections.
              Of course. That's why I don't think this is necessarily the best thing to spend time on.

              Especially given that the summary seems to imply less than scholarly standards in this work...
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #8
                goddamn it, the truth is out.

                It's time to activate the Baalzebub order wrt mass media.
                urgh.NSFW

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                  I think this is an interesting, though dangerous question.

                  Were all Jews out to snatch Gentile babies and eat them? Obviously not. Was there ever a deviant subsect of Judaism which did do this (and whose deeds were afterwards amplified)? I don't know.
                  and neither does Toaff. All he has is that some Jews used dried blood, which was apparently widely used as a "medicine" and used an obscure justification (not widely held) to justify use of otherwise banned blood. So it would be more proper to ask "did all Jews use blood" No, most did not. A weird subsect DID use blood. There is no evidence that even that weird subsect killed ANYONE other than the forced confessions, and Toaffs speculations that victimization and hatred could have led to it.

                  We've had such accusations in modern times, the Beiliss case, and certainly Jews of Russia had reasons for hatred as well. Yet that case proved to be a fraud. Why should we think these other cases were not frauds, just because there was a reason for hatred - the mere fact that use of blood was not against Jewish law for some weird sect doesnt establish that they used it.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KrazyHorse


                    Of course. That's why I don't think this is necessarily the best thing to spend time on.

                    Especially given that the summary seems to imply less than scholarly standards in this work...
                    from what I can gather in terms of establishing certain specific facts, "Were there ANY groups of Jews who considered consumption of blood halachically acceptable" he is scientifically sound (and yes, there are scientific methodologies for establishing authenticy of texts, etc, which is why history as a discipline has advanced) Where he is unscholarly, it seems to me, is his interpretation of those facts, which requires a broader view of the evidence.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Someone has to do it:

                      Throw the Jew down the well, so my country can be free.
                      You must grab him by his horns, then we have a big party.
                      "The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
                      "Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        :cartman:

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          We've had such accusations in modern times, the Beiliss case, and certainly Jews of Russia had reasons for hatred as well. Yet that case proved to be a fraud. Why should we think these other cases were not frauds, just because there was a reason for hatred - the mere fact that use of blood was not against Jewish law for some weird sect doesnt establish that they used it.


                          I am in agreement. I just think that cult religious practices and beliefs are vaguely interesting. People can convince themselves to do the oddest things.
                          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                          Stadtluft Macht Frei
                          Killing it is the new killing it
                          Ultima Ratio Regum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KrazyHorse

                            We've had such accusations in modern times, the Beiliss case, and certainly Jews of Russia had reasons for hatred as well. Yet that case proved to be a fraud. Why should we think these other cases were not frauds, just because there was a reason for hatred - the mere fact that use of blood was not against Jewish law for some weird sect doesnt establish that they used it.


                            I am in agreement. I just think that cult religious practices and beliefs are vaguely interesting. People can convince themselves to do the oddest things.
                            If youre really interested in medieval Kabbalah in general and not blood libels in particular theres a tremendous amount written. If you want to focus on an approach based on scientific history, that doesnt necessarily address the truth claims of mysticism, but only the historical records left in this world of what they did and said, the guy to read is Gershom Scholem.

                            You'll find some really wierd stuff, including orgies, but no blood sacrifices.
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This reminds me of the chupacabras
                              I need a foot massage

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X