Kerala and Maharashtra government to take over temples

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by aneeshm


There is no mention of untouchability in Chanakya's work, nor in the Manu Smriti, nor in the Vedas, so I think you just got pwned.

You make the mistake of equating social (caste) and religious systems.

Untouchability was something which was continued as a practice by people, not by state fiat. And anyway, there hasn't been a Hindu state for roughly three hundred years, so you can't make that comparison, either.

Christianity is officially a fairly tolerant and loving religion. However, as with all religions, it is entirely impossible to simply seperate moral judgements about that religion from how that religion has exercised itself within society (hence why Christianity is open to so much fierce condemnation).
Because your society and your precious political parties would perpetuate the caste system under theological justifications, we cannot in any way say that Hinduism has not exerted so much influence on the state since Hinduism has evolved to the point where it became a lot like Christianity

Your attempted defence of such a hateful system is shocking, though not inconsistent with the beliefs you have demonstrated in the past.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Tacc

Christianity is officially a fairly tolerant and loving religion. However, as with all religions, it is entirely impossible to simply seperate moral judgements about that religion from how that religion has exercised itself within society (hence why Christianity is open to so much fierce condemnation).

The whole point I'm making is that caste was a social system, not a religious one!

It was not the exercise of Hinduism within society which gave rise to caste, it was the influence of caste on Hinduism which led to caste being included in the lawbooks and given sanction.

As I said, there is no reference to caste discrimination in the Vedas, so this point simply doesn't stand!

Originally posted by Tacc

Because your society and your precious political parties would perpetuate the caste system under theological justifications, we cannot in any way say that Hinduism has not exerted so much influence on the state since Hinduism has evolved to the point where it became a lot like Christianity

My precious political parties would perpetuate caste? Are you nuts? They're the most ardent reformists! Every month or two, there is a statement condemning caste discrimination from the top leaders (and every day from the lower-downs).

These are the people who have done the most to build a more egalitarian society. Look at Rajasthan or Gujarat.

All the theological institutions have already accepted the VHP's resolution condemning caste.

Originally posted by Tacc

Your attempted defence of such a hateful system is shocking, though not inconsistent with the beliefs you have demonstrated in the past.

I have never defended the system, you know.

Your attempted strawman argument is unsuccessful, though not inconsistent with the logical incoherence you have displayed in the past.

[Jon Miller]

Renounce being a brahmin Aneeshm. If it really doesn't matter, quit considering yourself a brahmin, change your name, etc. Socially quit being a Brahmin.

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Renounce being a brahmin Aneeshm. If it really doesn't matter, quit considering yourself a brahmin, change your name, etc. Socially quit being a Brahmin.

JM

Can you quit being white?


Socially, I never mention my caste, unless someone asks. Neither do I ask others about what caste they are, nor do I care. So socially, I've quit being "$CASTE_IDENTITY" long ago. In fact, I've never defined myself by caste, anyway, so there's nothing to quit.

[Jon Miller]

So Brahmin's are a different race?

Like Dravidians and Aryans and Brahmins?

JM

[Jon Miller]

See, to us aneeshm Brahmin/etc seems a lot like our old hereditary class system. You know the:

peasent
freeman
noble
etc

system. Which was pretty sucky.

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
So Brahmin's are a different race?

Like Dravidians and Aryans and Brahmins?

JM

The point is not that of race, the point is that you cannot change your genes. If you're born into a caste, that's it from the hereditary of point of view. Real caste, of course, depends on occupation, not on birth.

As for the feudal comparison:

Caste was not a feudal institution until much later times, until the medieval age. Feudalism was one of the chief weaknesses which led to us losing against Muslim armies, in fact.

Feudalism sucks.

[Jon Miller]

Maybe caste sucks?

We got rid of heredity (mostly, still ahve some with wealth and celebraty 'classes'), why don't you?

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

Maybe caste sucks?

Of course it does. Who ever said otherwise?

But inciting people against each other just to get votes sucks even more.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

We got rid of heredity (mostly, still ahve some with wealth and celebraty 'classes'), why don't you?

JM

Even we've gotten rid of the state supporting heredity. There were tons of land reforms and stuff just after independence. What made you think we hadn't done all that?

[Jon Miller]

Well, then as I said. Stop being Brahmin.

If everyone stopped being a member of their class/caste, then problem fixed, right?

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

Well, then as I said. Stop being Brahmin.

As I said before, my caste has nothing to do with how I interact with others, or how others interact with me. In the sort of social circles in which I move, caste is already dead.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

If everyone stopped being a member of their class/caste, then problem fixed, right?

JM

True. But politicians exploit caste identities, and try to make people feel oppressed, just to appear their saviour, and to get their votes.

For instance, take the OBCs (Other Backward Castes). These are people who have never been discriminated against, they have always been a part of the Hindu mainstream, yet, people try to make out that they were oppressed. In reality, what happened is that these were people who had land holdings in villages, and thus did not move to the cities, and so have been left behind when compared to others who left for the cities. But just their backwardness is used as an excuse to provide for them reservations, to claim that they have somehow been oppressed (even though they are savarna and dwija, who were solidly mainstream and never discriminated against).

The real reason is all votes, votes, votes. Our politicians will do anything for votes, even divide their own people.

[Jon Miller]

OK, stop being Brahmin. If it is meaningless, then it shouldn't matter.

I don't mean saying it is meaningless and still being Brahmin, I mean stop being Brahmin, to make sure it is meaningless.

The fact that it is still a big deal for some means that some don't find it meaningless. To change their view, you must make it meaningless for yourself.

If you have ot change your name for this, do so.

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

OK, stop being Brahmin. If it is meaningless, then it shouldn't matter.

I've already stopped!

It doesn't matter any more. Not to me, not to my friends, to nobody I know.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

I don't mean saying it is meaningless and still being Brahmin, I mean stop being Brahmin, to make sure it is meaningless.

The state doesn't allow that. We still have to write our caste on many government forms. This is so that reservations and other things can be implemented.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

The fact that it is still a big deal for some means that some don't find it meaningless. To change their view, you must make it meaningless for yourself.

It already is! How do I tell you that?

Originally posted by Jon Miller

If you have ot change your name for this, do so.

JM

I'm far too attached to my name to change it for such a trivial reason. As I said, in my social circle, nobody cares anyway, and it would be totally weird if I went and changed it for something like this.

[Jon Miller]

Refuse to put your caste down. Never respond to anyone asking your Caste. Change your name. (or lie about it)

If every person, or even every Brahmin did this, there would be no problems with the Brahmin caste in India.

But responding with your Caste, by bring proud of it (And you definitely sound proud of it on Apolyton) is goading those who feel disenfranchised.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Your name isn't trivial for many.

JM