The Future of War?

[Sirotnikov]

First, if Israel could not destroy Hezbollah for 15 years when they actually had boots on the ground 24/7 in South Lebanon, what chance did they EVER have of actually being able to do it now? And since when is this about what the Shia (as a group) gained?Its about Hezbollah. I guess that is the basic judgement difference. You judge by possible material gains for the people. I say in terms of warand peace, most of the time those terms are secondary to more idea-based goals.

To be honest Israel has never tried to destroy Hezbullah in the time period you mention.

Since 1982, Israel is sort of... afraid of going the full mile and maintains the concept of "containment". This is partially because of international reaction and partially because of bad reactions at home.

Militarily 1982 was a very successful campaing that had nearly annahiliated the Fateh and PLO.

Politially, lefties became very mad, especially following the christian sponsored massacares and ever since, a growing trend was to see any military step with a defined 100% goal was seen as a route for trouble.

Problem is, that when you don't aim for success - you never achieve it.

Just like merely 'containing' the Hamas, only lead to it growing.

Actually, it has some good lesson in it about the abilities of well trained irregular forces in a well prepared battlefield.

... against a strategy of 'smart' technology driven firepower. and agreed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
First, if Israel could not destroy Hezbollah for 15 years when they actually had boots on the ground 24/7 in South Lebanon, what chance did they EVER have of actually being able to do it now?

In fact Israel only had boots on the ground in a relatively small part of south Lebanon fron 1984 on. IIUC Hezbs sanctuaries were north of that area.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
To be honest Israel has never tried to destroy Hezbullah in the time period you mention.

Oh, right, cause Israel was fine letting this groiup attack them for over a decade - not like Israel tries to destroy groups that attack them...

Since 1982, Israel is sort of... afraid of going the full mile and maintains the concept of "containment". This is partially because of international reaction and partially because of bad reactions at home.

Militarily 1982 was a very successful campaing that had nearly annahiliated the Fateh and PLO.

Politially, lefties became very mad, especially following the christian sponsored massacares and ever since, a growing trend was to see any military step with a defined 100% goal was seen as a route for trouble.

Problem is, that when you don't aim for success - you never achieve it.

Just like merely 'containing' the Hamas, only lead to it growing.

Sorry, don't buy this crap for a second. Lets me more blunt - occupations don't work unless you coop the people you occupy. Still haven't pacified the natives have you? Are you claiming you guys never tried? Funny, I doubt the Pals would agree.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


In fact Israel only had boots on the ground in a relatively small part of south Lebanon fron 1984 on. IIUC Hezbs sanctuaries were north of that area.

And Israel NEVER struck at those sanctuaries, yup...

Give me a ****ing break.

Its the same with Hamas. You don't destroy a group like Hamas or Hezbollah through military means, unless you plan to put the local population in concentration camps to cut of local resistance and then kill anything outside your camps.

The only admirable thing about Israel's handling of the occupied territories and southern Lebanon is that they never resorted to that strategy unlike Europeans before them. Kudos.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I disagree that they are stronger.

I think the war has seriously polarized the lebenese society, and they are in much less consensus. Their supporters like them more, and the rest like them much less.

That makes them stronger, given that their supporters happen to be the single largest group in a multi-group society riven by secterian tensions. niche marketing.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap
Oh, right, cause Israel was fine letting this groiup attack them for over a decade - not like Israel tries to destroy groups that attack them...

If you have any proof of Israeli attempts to wipe out Hezbullah or know of any plan to destroy it, conceived between 1982 and 2000, you're welcome to let me know.

Also, if you're aware of any Israeli military attempts to totally wipe out Hamas, you're welcome to post them.

Sorry, don't buy this crap for a second. Lets me more blunt - occupations don't work unless you coop the people you occupy. Still haven't pacified the natives have you? Are you claiming you guys never tried? Funny, I doubt the Pals would agree.

This is again when your ideological viewpoint and conviction that Israel is the all evil lebensraum occupier blurs your understanding of events.

This is the freaking 100th time that I'm awed by your idiotic self conviction based on... I have no idea what!

Never in the history of talking to you, have you listened to a different opinion from what you had already pre-conceived, or considered for a minute that someone else may have a better clue.

I can't imagine how you keep justifying your convictions to yourself, without ever considering something that contradicts it.

I have no idea what stops you from listening to someone who's more in touch with actual Israeli policies instead of rambling on about your personal convictions.

Guess what - reading publications, from half a planet away, does not make you an expert on anything.

You're full of yourself and thick headed. Not as bigoted and crude a troll, such as Mobius, but still. No wonder Az stopped bothering with you. Talking to you is pointless.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Israel wasn't beaten. The zionist entity remains. Hezbollah successfully hid from israel until israel lost the political will to continue to hunt them down. The rockets and other attacks they launched at israel had negligable to zero effect on israels fighting capability.

This 'victory' is almost totally useless for hezbollah in it's goal of destroying israel.

Hezbollah's victory weakened Israel which is what they were aiming for.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whoha


Hezbollah's victory weakened Israel which is what they were aiming for.

weakened militarily? no.

[Whoha]

but still weakened. As you said, the will was lost to stop these people who launched the attack on Israel. And of course the Iranians/Syrians will continue funding their proxy because of its success, it still has weapons aimed at Israel, and they still have the two Israelies they grabbed.

[Kuciwalker]

This is again when your ideological viewpoint and conviction that Israel is the all evil lebensraum occupier blurs your understanding of events.

This is the freaking 100th time that I'm awed by your idiotic self conviction based on... I have no idea what!

Never in the history of talking to you, have you listened to a different opinion from what you had already pre-conceived, or considered for a minute that someone else may have a better clue.

I can't imagine how you keep justifying your convictions to yourself, without ever considering something that contradicts it.

I have no idea what stops you from listening to someone who's more in touch with actual Israeli policies instead of rambling on about your personal convictions.

Guess what - reading publications, from half a planet away, does not make you an expert on anything.

You're full of yourself and thick headed. Not as bigoted and crude a troll, such as Mobius, but still. No wonder Az stopped bothering with you. Talking to you is pointless.

Especially since if you do prove him completely wrong on something concrete, something that is the premise of his argument, he just changes the subject.

[Sirotnikov]

Sorry about earlier.

I won't DanS, though.

GePap - as much as you do have what appears to be a wide amount of knowledge about lots of different stuff - your knowledge is often skin deep and inexact. It usually supports a very certain world view, and you never question it.

You never take into account something other than your opinion, so eventually arguing with you is pointless and little fun.

I do admit you know lots of trivia and make good judgements in general. Some of what you say makes me dwell deeper into issues and research and analyze my facts.

Sadly though, it appears I'm the only one doing that effort, and you simply dismiss anything said that doesn't fit your POV.

I'll simply refrain from discussing with you. I'll post my POV. You'll post yours.

Hope we meet in +1 threads.

[Drake Tungsten]

GePap - as much as you do have what appears to be a wide amount of knowledge about lots of different stuff

Say what?

[KrazyHorse]

He has knowledge but limited perspective.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

If you have any proof of Israeli attempts to wipe out Hezbullah or know of any plan to destroy it, conceived between 1982 and 2000, you're welcome to let me know.

Also, if you're aware of any Israeli military attempts to totally wipe out Hamas, you're welcome to post them.

Oh, of course, unless there was one single specifically designed campaign to achieve a specific goal, its impossible to say that a regime has made an attempt to wipe out a political group....

So I guess the ONLY time the US has tried to get rid of the Iraqi insurgency was when they stormed Fallujah, and Ramadi. Otherwise, the US in fact does not even attempt to stamp out the Sunni insurgency. Nope....

Give me a break.

As I told LoTM, the only admirable thing about Israel's handling of its occupation is that it uses the more "normal" approach to asymetrical combat, not the old Boer War concentration camp method.

This is again when your ideological viewpoint and conviction that Israel is the all evil lebensraum occupier blurs your understanding of events.

This is the freaking 100th time that I'm awed by your idiotic self conviction based on... I have no idea what!

Never in the history of talking to you, have you listened to a different opinion from what you had already pre-conceived, or considered for a minute that someone else may have a better clue.

I can't imagine how you keep justifying your convictions to yourself, without ever considering something that contradicts it.

I have no idea what stops you from listening to someone who's more in touch with actual Israeli policies instead of rambling on about your personal convictions.

Guess what - reading publications, from half a planet away, does not make you an expert on anything.

You're full of yourself and thick headed. Not as bigoted and crude a troll, such as Mobius, but still. No wonder Az stopped bothering with you. Talking to you is pointless.

Same to you, because we have the same discussion all the time.

you after all had plenty of claims about the Lebanon war, about what the IDF did and did not do. About cluster bombs, for example. Woops, and then the Israeli government ITSELF has an investigation about the issue and found problems.

I certainly have a strong viewpoint on this issue and so do you. The proof is in who is correct. Hell, I called how that war would go from day one. Just bring up that thread, and read what was posted. Sorry Siro, it doesn't matter what the **** you think of my viewpoint, but somehow my annalysis keeps coming closer to what ends up happening than yours.

That is the proof of the pudding.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Especially since if you do prove him completely wrong on something concrete, something that is the premise of his argument, he just changes the subject.

You still yapping about Weslie? Pop Quiz "hotshot" (and I use that term with great sarcasm): What was the arguement?

I know I won't get an answer from you of course, your too much of an intellectual chicken****, but its nice to call you out, to see you skip out.