Why I oppose the Aryan invasion theory

[DaShi]

By telling the truth?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DaShi
Perhaps if people in India were able to cope with the truth of their history, they could move on with their lives.

QFT

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by aneeshm


We did not start this. It is the people wishing to divide India who try to incite people against Hinduism, and against Brahmins, who cause trouble. This is a reaction to that. A political response to a political problem. But it seems that the scholarly response is equally powerful, and most importantly, true.

See? This is what I mean with a conspirative world view which is actually more dangerous than you think. Everyone with a differing position is inciting against hinduism and Hindu-elite, and moreover this equals trying to divide India.
To me, you represent an ideological theory of history with only one aim: to prove the equation of India and hinduism - and this is no basis for scholarly discussion.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


See? This is what I mean with a conspirative world view which is actually more dangerous than you think. Everyone with a differing position is inciting against hinduism and Hindu-elite, and moreover this equals trying to divide India.

The most popular leader of the South, who founded the anti-Brahmin DK, a party which is the standard of Southern politics, was known to have said things like:

"If you see a snake and a Brahmin, kill the Brahmin first."

and

"We will do to the Brahmins what Hitler did to the Jews."

And you call me the guy with the conspiratorial worldview?

The Communist party of India actually did collaborate with the British, against Gandhi - this evidence is there in the archives of the time, in words as plain as day.

The newspaper "Dalit Voice", which is stridently anti-Brahmin, envisages the creation of different territories out of India. One for the Muslims, one for the lower castes, one for each so-called "oppressed" community, and none for the upper castes - they're supposed to die. They've even made a map. Check it out if you want.

Each of these are not fringe, but mainstream elements. That is why I am concerned.

I don't mind people with a differing position, but unfortunately, our opposition is intellectually bankrupt. They don't have any coherent ideology, just opposition. You don't live here and you don't read the newspapers I do, or you with the eye of the outsider would have spotted that immediately. Maybe I can't make my case very well, but reality makes it for me better than I ever can.

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

To me, you represent an ideological theory of history with only one aim: to prove the equation of India and hinduism - and this is no basis for scholarly discussion.

I've never said that, you know.

[Barnabas]

How is that related to the truth or falseness of the aryan invasion theory?

[Odin]

There are only 2 accepted theories for the origin of the Indo-European languages, with first being the most widely accepted:

1. They were spread by the expansion pf the Copper Age Kurgan culture of the Pontic Steppe, the first people to domesticate the horse.

2. They were spread by the expansion of Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

The crap Aneeshm posted is garbage with no basis in either linguistics or archeology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

Some things about their culture can be determined with confidence, based on the words reconstructed for their language:

* they used a kinship system based on relationships between men

* the chief of their pantheon was *dyeus ph2tēr (lit. "sky father"; > Gr. Ζευς (πατηρ) / Zeus (patēr); *dieu-ph2tēr > Lat. Jupiter),[1] and an earth god

* they composed and recited heroic poetry or song lyrics, that used stock phrases like undying fame

* the climate they lived in had snow[2]

* they were both pastoral and nomadic, domesticating cattle and horses

* they had carts, with solid wheels, but not yet chariots, with spoked wheels

What is known about the Proto-Indo-Europeans with any certainty is the result of comparative linguistics, partly seconded by archaeology. The following traits are widely agreed-upon, but it should be understood that they are hypothetical by their reconstructed nature.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a patrilineal society, probably semi-nomadic, relying on animal husbandry (notably cattle and sheep). They had domesticated the horse (eḱwos). The cow (gwous) played a central role, in religion and mythology as well as in daily life. A man's wealth would have been measured by the number of his animals (peḱus, the word for small livestock, acquired a meaning of "value" in both English fee and in Latin pecunia).

They practiced a polytheistic religion centered on sacrificial rites, probably administered by a priestly caste. The Kurgan hypothesis suggests burials in barrows or tomb chambers. Important leaders would have been buried with their belongings, and possibly also with members of their household or wives (human sacrifice, suttee).

There is evidence for sacral kingship, suggesting the tribal king at the same time assumed the role of high priest (cf. Germanic king). Many Indo-European societies know a threefold division of a clerical class, a warrior class and a class of peasants or husbandmen. Such a division was suggested for the Proto-Indo-European society by Georges Dumézil.

If there had been a separate class of warriors, then it would probably have consisted of single young men. They would have followed a separate warrior code unacceptable in the society outside their peer-group. Traces of initiation rites in several Indo-European societies suggest that this group identified itself with wolves or dogs (see also Berserker, werewolf).

Technologically, reconstruction suggests a culture of the early Bronze Age: Bronze was used to make tools and weapons. Silver and gold were known. Sheep were kept for wool, and weaving was practiced for textile production. The wheel was known, certainly for ox-drawn carts, and late Proto-Indo European warfare may also have made use of horse-drawn chariots.

The native name of this people cannot be reconstructed with certainty. Aryo-, sometimes upheld as a self-identification of the Indo-Europeans (see Aryan), is attested as an ethnic designation only in the Indo-Iranian subfamily.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
How is that related to the truth or falseness of the aryan invasion theory?

These people claim that the Brahmins are Aryans, the lower castes are original inhabitants, and that is why Brahmins are oppressors not just because of caste, but just because of birth - that is, a Brahmin is a oppressor because of his genes, there is nothing he can do about it, and he does not belong in India because they claim he is of Aryan descent.

Consummate rubbish, because regional genetic variations have been found to be far greater than caste variations, but still used to incite anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu hatred to serve each petty political party's agenda.

To compare - this is far, far more and worse than even the most rabid Hindu nationalist will ever claim about Muslims.



People like me oppose this sort of politics, and if it turns out that the base of this theory itself was false, all the better.

[Odin]

Originally posted by aneeshm


These people claim that the Brahmins are Aryans, the lower castes are original inhabitants, and that is why Brahmins are oppressors not just because of caste, but just because of birth - that is, a Brahmin is a oppressor because of his genes, there is nothing he can do about it, and he does not belong in India because they claim he is of Aryan descent.

Consummate rubbish, because regional genetic variations have been found to be far greater than caste variations, but still used to incite anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu hatred to serve each petty political party's agenda.

To compare - this is far, far more and worse than even the most rabid Hindu nationalist will ever claim about Muslims.



People like me oppose this sort of politics, and if it turns out that the base of this theory itself was false, all the better.

A Y chromosome genetic marker called R1a that originated in the Pontic Steppe region is significantly more common among the higher castes then among the the lower ones.

[Dinner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

I had never heard of Tocharian before so when I saw it on Odin's map I decided to look it up. Very interesting stuff. They lived in Northern Pakistan/India through Afghanistan and even into far western China. They did paint frescos in tombs and what not and the pictures are rather interesting since they show people with light colored skin, light colored hair, and light colored eyes. Language reconstruction from ancient Greek (Alexander) and ancient Turkish sources show that they were indeed indo-European. Look at this picture they painted:

"Tocharian donors", with light hair and light eye color, dressed in Sassanian style, 6th century CE fresco, Qizil, Tarim Basin. These frescoes are associated with annotations in Tocharian and Sanskrit made by their painters.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Oerdin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

I had never heard of Tocharian before so when I saw it on Odin's map I decided to look it up. Very interesting stuff. They lived in Northern Pakistan/India through Afghanistan and even into far western China. They did paint frescos in tombs and what not and the pictures are rather interesting since they show people with light colored skin, light colored hair, and light colored eyes. Language reconstruction from ancient Greek (Alexander) and ancient Turkish sources show that they were indeed indo-European. Look at this picture they painted:

"Tocharian donors", with light hair and light eye color, dressed in Sassanian style, 6th century CE fresco, Qizil, Tarim Basin. These frescoes are associated with annotations in Tocharian and Sanskrit made by their painters.

They were the decedents of these guys:

Tarim Mummies

[Kuciwalker]

Re: Why I oppose the Aryan invasion theory

Because it doesn't mesh with your ultra-hindu-nationalist worldview, duh.

[Heresson]

aneeshm - PIC!

[KrazyHorse]

Aneeshm can't be for real, can he?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Odin


They were the decedents of these guys:

Tarim Mummies

Interesting. The wiki article says the Chinese called them the Bai people and described them as white people with long hair.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Aneeshm can't be for real, can he?

I suspect he's a DL created by the same person who brought us Serb and UR.