Would Iraq be better off if Saddam was still in power?

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
IMHO, if we can ever get our heinies out of Iraq, the Iranians will be given the heave-ho soon after. Arabs hate Persians, even if they are both ****te.

Who's going to give it to the Iranians? Iraq is smaller and less populous than Iran, even if it remains unified and the fighting ends.

[Sava]

I could give half a **** about Iraq.

America would be better off if Saddam was still in power (if we never invaded).

Why are people pretending to care about what's best for the Iraqi people? Nobody cared before and people are feigning sympathy now. It's all about what's good for America. If the war was going great for us, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[chequita guevara]

Not all of us are hypocrites, Sava. I opposed the war from the moment the Administration started selling the idea.

[Barnabas]

People care that nowadays dozens of iraqis blow up every day

[Sava]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Not all of us are hypocrites, Sava.

Everyone is. It's just a question of to what degree one is a hypocrite.

I opposed the war from the moment the Administration started selling the idea.

So? I don't know exactly what your reasons were or how each of those reasons played into your opposition. I also objected to the invasion well beforehand. But I'm not about to pretend (and I'm not accusing you of doing so) to care about the Iraqi people, or that the welfare of the Iraqi people was tops on my list for reasons not to go to war.

But I see this argument coming from people who were opposed to the war... that somehow we ought to be doing what's in the best interest of the Iraqi people.

Sorry, but most of the people opposed to the war in Iraq who are saying things like that didn't give half a **** about the interests of the Iraqi people when the War wasn't an issue. It's become a popular thing to say. But it's just a meaningless talking point. It's hypocrisy.

If everyone who made such statements truly cared about the interests of the Iraqi people (and the people of Darfur and every other group of people who are suffering from violence in the world), then the United States would be taking a more active role in policing the world with the help of the international community.

It's just like in the Muslim world how leaders pretend to bash Israel and care so much about the Palestinians. Oh sure, it's popular on the Arab street to say you are going to crush the Zionists... but it's all rabble rousing nonsense... just like all this bull**** about the Iraqi people.

Why can't people just be honest? There's nothing wrong with being concerned with your own interests first. That's not to say you wish bad things on other people, but there's a pecking order when it comes to who you care about and how much you care about them.

There are some people out there who really do care about every other human being on the planet and demonstrate that love of their fellow human being with their actions. But most everyone else just pretends to be that way because they don't want to seem like an *******. Hypocrisy makes people an *******. Looking after your own self-interest? That just makes you a human being.

[Berzerker]

It looks like Iraqis had 1 tyrant 300 miles away and now have 3,000 tyrants 1 mile away

[Sava]

[Berzerker]

Everyone is. It's just a question of to what degree one is a hypocrite.

No, its a question of hypocrisy that hurts others. This was the hypocrisy that Jesus repeatedly condemned. But I dont think it is hypocrisy, its natural to care more about a foreign people when you're leaders are over there doing something to cause their misfortune. Thats why more Americans started caring about Iraqis in the 80s as we got more involved with Saddam than in the 70s or 60s. Thats when many people were pre-occupied caring about Vietnamese and stopping that war.

[Berzerker]

hehe, Melibu

[Wiglaf]

Re: Would Iraq be better off if Saddam was still in power?

Originally posted by realpolitic
Given the mess that is now Iraq, by all accounts, there are far more Iraqi dead than if Saddam was still ruling. He was a vicious, evil dictator, but I'm of the opinion that it would be better off if he was still in power. It's amazing what a mess that moron in the White House can make.

I don't see any more terror attacks here. I don't see many more American casualties than we had under Clinton. We ****ed up that country, and they had it coming, the way Saddam was operating.

[Berzerker]

We ****ed up that country

Intentionally...either that or the people running the war are criminally incompetent.

[gwillybj]

If the choice must be human, the Iraqis are better off governed by responsible Iraqis.
My heritage is irrelevant.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Sava
Everyone is. It's just a question of to what degree one is a hypocrite.
So? I don't know exactly what your reasons were or how each of those reasons played into your opposition. I also objected to the invasion well beforehand. But I'm not about to pretend (and I'm not accusing you of doing so) to care about the Iraqi people, or that the welfare of the Iraqi people was tops on my list for reasons not to go to war.

But I see this argument coming from people who were opposed to the war... that somehow we ought to be doing what's in the best interest of the Iraqi people.

Sorry, but most of the people opposed to the war in Iraq who are saying things like that didn't give half a **** about the interests of the Iraqi people when the War wasn't an issue. It's become a popular thing to say. But it's just a meaningless talking point. It's hypocrisy.

If everyone who made such statements truly cared about the interests of the Iraqi people (and the people of Darfur and every other group of people who are suffering from violence in the world), then the United States would be taking a more active role in policing the world with the help of the international community.

It's just like in the Muslim world how leaders pretend to bash Israel and care so much about the Palestinians. Oh sure, it's popular on the Arab street to say you are going to crush the Zionists... but it's all rabble rousing nonsense... just like all this bull**** about the Iraqi people.

Why can't people just be honest? There's nothing wrong with being concerned with your own interests first. That's not to say you wish bad things on other people, but there's a pecking order when it comes to who you care about and how much you care about them.

There are some people out there who really do care about every other human being on the planet and demonstrate that love of their fellow human being with their actions. But most everyone else just pretends to be that way because they don't want to seem like an *******. Hypocrisy makes people an *******. Looking after your own self-interest? That just makes you a human being.

I wrote a term paper for my ethics class in late 2002 about why the Iraq war would be wrong. I can't remember the exact justification, but I seem to remember that at least part of it was that it would destablize the region and send the message to regional hegemons that it's ok to invade weaker countries you don't like as long as you can make up some reasons.

Later, over countless debates, I set out a more practical set of reasons:
1) It would tell other countries that WMD were the only way to make the US mind its own business.
2) Oppressive dictatorship is better than chaos, at least for outside parties (neighbors who get refugees, the US, etc.)
3) There was no proven link to Al Qaeda.
4) the invasion would piss off muslims.
5) etc.

I don't think I've ever claimed to care about the Iraqi people. It's sad that bad stuff is happening to them, but if I felt that it was my duty to care, there's so many other countries that are pretty screwed up right now.

edit: For the record I also opposed the invasion of Afghanistan and Clinton's bombing of Serbia. I admit that in those cases I may have been wrong.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Lancer
That's one reason why we shouldn't go too far, possibly just to Kuwait. It would be fun to feed the Iraqis weapons to use against Iranians.

That was called the Iran-Iraq War, you know back when Saddam was our bum chum...

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Lancer
That's one reason why we shouldn't go too far, possibly just to Kuwait. It would be fun to feed the Iraqis weapons to use against Iranians.

Pssst, the US and the brits tried that before in 1940s in Vietnam. And see how that turned out...

Maybe we should just leave them sort it out amongst each other