Finally, a European with backbone

[Zkribbler]

yeah...even the Muslim world has its Pat Robertsons, who feel that they have to stir up hatred among religions.

The explosion we saw in the Middle East wasn't because of the cartoons, per se, it was because of the exaggerations the Middle East were being told.

Hate mongers

[BlackCat]

The explosion we saw in the Middle East wasn't because of the cartoons, per se, it was because of the exaggerations the Middle East were being told.

I seriously doubt that the drawings as such are the reason it went havoc - neither common people nor clerics was that pissed of by the pics - even an egyptian newspaper mentioned them way before the explotion.

In my view there are two things that trigggered it - the false pics and political reasons. While the false pics may be reason for unrest, such unrest simply wouldn't be allowed in syria unless approved by government.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by BlackCat
...such unrest simply wouldn't be allowed in syria unless approved by government.

QFT....when you're running an oppressive regime like that, you want the citizenry's hated aimed at something outside the country, so they don't notice how badly their own government is foinking them.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Insulting someone else's religious figures in not cool. Such actions deserve criticism.

I wonder where your criticism is when Christian figures are insulted in disgusting, demeaning ways. No one blinks of course. Hell, in the west not only do we tolerate when Christianity is mocked, the government pays for it!

Look at the ridiculous hypocrisy of Comedy Central when it censored out an image of Muhammad just standing in a doorway. No bomb on his head, nothing insulting or demeaning at all, but they censored that out for fear of upsetting Muslims. Yet they showed President Bush taking a **** on Jesus and vice versa.

Maybe the world would care more about hurting Christian's feelings if we killed people every time something happened that pissed us off. Maybe then it would elicit some criticism. But no, instead Christianity is everyone's whipping boy.

For the record, as bad as Pat Robertson is, if you want to compare the worst of major religions there is no comparison between him and the hate mongering, murderous acts of the worst Muslim extremists. It is just a nonsense comparison.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Look at the ridiculous hypocrisy of Comedy Central when it censored out an image of Muhammad just standing in a doorway. No bomb on his head, nothing insulting or demeaning at all, but they censored that out for fear of upsetting Muslims. Yet they showed President Bush taking a **** on Jesus and vice versa.

This is the first I've heard of this. I rarely watch Comedy Central.

For the record, as bad as Pat Robertson is, if you want to compare the worst of major religions there is no comparison between him and the hate mongering, murderous acts of the worst Muslim extremists. It is just a nonsense comparison.

I wasn't comparing Robinson to the worst of the extremist -- who have killed and sent vermin out to kill. They are far worse than he. I was comparing Robinson to the imam who preach hatred.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson
Henryk? Strange that he kept a polish name despite living in Germany for almost a half of century

Well, the entire Ruhrgebiet is full of Polish names, and those came much earlier, during the industrialization of the 19th cent

Broder's of Polish-Jewish origin. That's not to go "omg the zionist world conspiracy controls our media", but to give some background. It explains his usually strong pro US/pro Israel views. Since a large segment of the media here is rather critical towards those, I think he's an important voice - if one agrees with him or not.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Remember, in Islam, it is a sin to make a drawing of anything found on Earth or in Heaven!

Not to be so strictly interpreted:



Main facade of the Ummayad mosque, Damascus. Early 8th century.

Generally, the facade is thought to be a representation of the Garden of Eden.

[germanos]

Not to mention Islamic miniatures:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

[BeBMan]

Yep, in early Islam they made some cool stuff depicting "real" things. You can find also Ummayad works in the so-called desert castles in Jordan, depicting hunting scenes etc.

Otoh purely from the aesthetical POV I also like the (often very complicated) ornaments you find in Islamic art so often since the "no pics of real things"-rule kicked in.

[Heresson]

Not only hunting scenes, but also naked dancers etc.
But these were personal rooms of the caliphs, of a dinasty that (with exception of Umar II) was considered impious. When it comes to Umayyad's Mosque in Damascus:
1) the mosaic decoration was created by byzantine artworkers, not muslims
2) it only depicts plants and buildings, not humans... I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are no animals there, or few.
Not that there weren't animals in muslim art... For example, Baybars covered his dominions with lions... but he was a convert to islam.
I don't think the use of floral ornaments was ever forbidden in islam.
When it comes to these minatures, while perhaps there were earlier ones, they appeared as asian influence, after Mongols.

Well, the entire Ruhrgebiet is full of Polish names, and those came much earlier, during the industrialization of the 19th cent

I think Poland deserves Ruhr as its province
But we also need a corridor to it.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Heresson
Not only hunting scenes, but also naked dancers etc.
But these were personal rooms of the caliphs, of a dinasty that (with exception of Umar II) was considered impious. When it comes to Umayyad's Mosque in Damascus:
1) the mosaic decoration was created by byzantine artworkers, not muslims
2) it only depicts plants and buildings, not humans... I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are no animals there, or few.
Not that there weren't animals in muslim art... For example, Baybars covered his dominions with lions... but he was a convert to islam.
I don't think the use of floral ornaments was ever forbidden in islam.
When it comes to these minatures, while perhaps there were earlier ones, they appeared as asian influence, after Mongols.

None of these remarks do in any way substantiate the claim "Remember, in Islam, it is a sin to make a drawing of anything found on Earth or in Heaven!"

The Ummayads were considerd impious? Certainly not by themselves, on the contrary, they considerd themselves to be the rightious 'heirs' to Mohammed's legacy.
What does it matter who the craftsmen where? The fact it's inside a major mosque, for all to see and awe, is.
That the miniatures excist in plainly islamic art shows that even the claim that depicting humans is a sin is dubious.

I'm not a muslim scolar, but as far as I know the 'ban' on depicting Mohammed (and then stretching the ban further on other lifeforms) is more in the line of the (1st?) commandment : Thou shall not make an image of me [God] to worship.
Hence the Ummayads thought it prudent to depict Eden.

IIRC, this whole 'picture-ban' is hadith, not from a direct quote from the Quran.

The reference not to blasphemy the prophet has probably a more direct link to the Quran, but may as well not be a direct quote.

I do think though that for many muslims the hadith is as holy to them as, for example, the Roman Catholic encyclical teachings are to some christians. Whether or not those teachings are 'true' or not is offcourse open to debate, as the muslims among eachother never fail to prove.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson
I think Poland deserves Ruhr

I wouldn't even wish Poland the Ruhr

*German language insider joke*

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


The same way cross-burning used to be done in the name of Christ.

You have to remember these wackos aren't mainstream Muslims. Their chief religious leaders have condemned them.

And then continued on and supported them behind the public eye. After all, if the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia is someone notorious for putting out DVDs meant only for consumption in Mosques, where he basically encourages the flock to go out and hurt people.

Remember, in Islam, it is a sin to make a drawing of anything found on Earth or in Heaven! To draw their prophet is a double abomination. And to draw him with horn is beyond the pale.

I don't see Christians burning down the Family Guy studios, or killing Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Tell me those guys ain't blasphemous. Go on, tell me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by germanos
IIRC, this whole 'picture-ban' is hadith, not from a direct quote from the Quran.

The reference not to blasphemy the prophet has probably a more direct link to the Quran, but may as well not be a direct quote.

I do think though that for many muslims the hadith is as holy to them as, for example, the Roman Catholic encyclical teachings are to some christians. Whether or not those teachings are 'true' or not is offcourse open to debate, as the muslims among eachother never fail to prove.

That's correct. It isn't in the Quran (I can't imagine any religious leader saying, don't draw pictures of me or you'll go to Hell). But later scholarship of the Hadith. Exactly how Catholic church encyclicals are not found within the text of the Bible (though based upon something there).

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Look at the ridiculous hypocrisy of Comedy Central when it censored out an image of Muhammad just standing in a doorway. No bomb on his head, nothing insulting or demeaning at all, but they censored that out for fear of upsetting Muslims. Yet they showed President Bush taking a **** on Jesus and vice versa.