A Palestinian Village cut in half by Israel's Wall...

[Lancer]

I suppose the wall will make it more dificult to fire rockets into Israel. Those damn Israelis, always making things more difficult.

[Sprayber]

What forms does discriminations against Arabs take in Isreal. Are there particular laws that limit non-jews in general or Arabs in particular? I'm just curious. I keep hearing about discrimination and I'd like to know exactly what that entails.

[Sirotnikov]

Only if the US were to decide arbitrarily to advance into Mexican territory and build a wall through a town without any respect for international borders.

You know better than that.

Israel did not arbitrarily advance into palestinian territory.

Israel occupied that territory in a defensive war (The Jordanians opened artillery fire on Israel in 67', despite being unprovoked by Israel). There is nothing 'illegal' about the Israeli occupation.

This territory has no clear legal status. It has been designated for "a jewish homeland" by the league of nations and the British Mandate.

It has later been included in several UN and international partition drafts - none of which were binding, and none of which were accepted by the Palestinian representatives.

That territory later 'enjoyed' 19 years of Jordanian occupation and even an assimilation attempt, which was no doubt - illegal - since Jordan wasn't part of the partition plans in the first place.

Jordan itself is a conundrum - as it was teared away from the original mandate territory, which was supposed to fulfill jewish (and palestinian?) homeland requirements.

The territory currently is under dispute.
Israel claims religious and territorial rights.
So do the palestinians.

Israel is the administrator of large parts of the territories.
Legally, as currently no other administrator is to be found, or to be recognized - except for the internationally recognized accords which assign areas A and B to palestinian administrative and security (a only) control.



Israel did not simply bite a land out of an existing nation, as you try to put it.

[Sirotnikov]

as for the account in question of the village :

there's a much more complex account of a village which is torn by the international border line between Israel and Lebanon, called Rajar.

The village simply grew there, and the recognized international border cuts it in half.

Hezbullah claims it should be lebanese.
The villagers don't want to lose their Israeli status though.
Nor do they want to move.

Israel has tried administering it in an odd fashion -
No fence what so ever existed on the border and both city parts are territorially united.

A perimeter surrounding its Israeli part is guarded, and IDF keeps patrols inside the Israeli side streets.

This however brought lots of tension, and was a very fertile breeding ground for Hezbullah spy and terrorist infiltration.

After the latest war with Lebanon, Israel has decided to give control of the village to the UN - a step which created an outcry and anger among the villagers, who want to remain Israelis very much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghajar

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Lancer
I suppose the wall will make it more dificult to fire rockets into Israel

I doubt it. Unless they plan to make it a few thousand feet high.

[Sirotnikov]

What forms does discriminations against Arabs take in Isreal. Are there particular laws that limit non-jews in general or Arabs in particular? I'm just curious. I keep hearing about discrimination and I'd like to know exactly what that entails.

- there is no state mechanism for inter faith marriages - each faith has its own religious mechanism, but none will inter-marry.

- statistically - less funds are usually appropriated to arab municipalities. this has several causes besides plain old ethnic discrimination - but that appears to be a factor as well. Other than that there is wide spread corruption, nepotism and unique civil structures in that society.

- arabs are not required for the draft to defense and security services. mostly because no one wants to make them meet their relatives in the other side of a conflict...
though there are signs that this might eventually change, and a draft for 'national tasks' such as police or fire services might be instated. Arab leaders are very much against that.

- arabs might be discriminated against in government/defense jobs requiring security clearance, though there have been lots of druze and other non-jews in sensitive positions.

- there's hot debate over a proposed (first ever) arab minister from the labor party. this was a sort of a political trick by peretz, who made this an impossible choice for olmert - since olmert can't really say no and be accused of racism. this even though the planned persona is an untalented low level political figure, with very little support.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


I doubt it. Unless they plan to make it a few thousand feet high.

true for rockets.

it has made it much more difficult to infiltrate israel and perform suicide attacks. this is corroborated with intel. and captive debriefing evidence.

[KrazyHorse]

I am not arguing with that...

I'd much rather that Israel build a wall and disengage itself from the Territories than I would have them continue with the failed policies of the last 40 years.

Pull back from the dumbass settlements not fundamentally connected to Israel proper and build a wall as high as you want. Start treating the PA as a sovereign entity and let them work it out for themselves.

My only caveat is that anybody who's cut off by this wall (is on the Israel side) be given Israeli citizenship if he wants it.

Annex the ****ing territory and be done with it. The legal limbo of the Occupied Territories is ridiculous, and shames Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

My only caveat is that anybody who's cut off by this wall (is on the Israel side) be given Israeli citizenship if he wants it.

Annex the ****ing territory and be done with it. The legal limbo of the Occupied Territories is ridiculous, and shames Israel.

well obviously we'll have little choise but to grant them citizenship.

we annexed jerusalem too


as far as pulling out - the situation in gaza is unclear - whether it is in israel's favor or not. i supported it, and i still think it was right. but it doesn't necessarily create a better condition.

basically instead of a managed buffer zone with medium human rights issues, a pull out creates:

- an enemy state very close to israeli borders.

- a security vacuum where far worse weapons and terrorist groups sprout (al qaida, hezbullah infiltrators)

- worse humanintarion conditions (failure to administrate)


are we now more justified to attack in gaza, if they make a war move against us?
- apparently not so much, according to world community
- we can't pre-empt or foil terrorist attacks. we have to wait for someone to get hurt, to have justification to 'do our thing'.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'd much rather that Israel build a wall and disengage itself from the Territories than I would have them continue with the failed policies of the last 40 years.

Pull back from the dumbass settlements not fundamentally connected to Israel proper and build a wall as high as you want. Start treating the PA as a sovereign entity and let them work it out for themselves.

My only caveat is that anybody who's cut off by this wall (is on the Israel side) be given Israeli citizenship if he wants it.

Annex the ****ing territory and be done with it. The legal limbo of the Occupied Territories is ridiculous

[Sirotnikov]

no thoughts on the result of the gaza pullout?

[GePap]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


My only caveat is that anybody who's cut off by this wall (is on the Israel side) be given Israeli citizenship if he wants it.

Annex the ****ing territory and be done with it. The legal limbo of the Occupied Territories is ridiculous, and shames Israel.

That would undermine the demographics of Israel, since it would increase the percentage of non-Jewish citizens, and how can one have a Jewish democracy if more and more people aren't Jewish?

[Adalbertus]

Politicians like to cut villages and towns. Görlitz (D) and Zgorolec (P, I hope I spelt correctly) in fact is one town cut by the border in 1945. Kerkrade (NL) and Herzogenrath (D) are historically more or less one (two towns on either side of a castle), separated by the border set in 1815.

Politicians

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
no thoughts on the result of the gaza pullout?

I'm too lazy to respond, but you've mischaracterised several things as well as drawn silly conclusions on several others.

[Sirotnikov]

but... then how will I learn?