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  • The historical Artus (King Arthur)

    So, who was he?
    After all there are lots of sources which make it probable that Artus really lived (although he may not have been king but rather a military leader and has only few things in common with the writings of Geoffrey of Monmouth and definitely has nothing in common with the tales of Chrétien de Troyes)

    IMHO the two most convincing sources for the historical Artus are so far:

    Lucius Artorius Castus who was a roman military officer and lived during the 2nd Century AD.
    He began his military career as a simple centurion and used revolutionary tactics (by lining up his legionaries as a schiltron) in his combat against the sarmatians
    (who were warriors which fought mainly by horse and therefore had a very strong cavalry).
    During his time stationed there he gained the respect of the sarmatians and obviously convinced sarmatian troops to fight for rome.
    He was later made Primus Pilus and, after a period where he was praepositus (admiral) of the fleet of Naples he was sent as Dux legionis to Britain, along with 5500 Sarmatians (which were warriors as well as their families) where he took command of the VI Victrix.
    There along with his sarmatian horsemen he successfully guarded the Hadrian wall and later, after retiring from his military career he was made governor of Liburnia (which lies in Dalmatia).


    There are some things which speak for Castus as being the historical Artus. He was a successful leader of a group of loyal horsemen (which could be made into the knight of the round table) during a time where most combats were fought by foot soldiers and he protected the (roman) british from their enemies.
    But he lived in the wrong time (2nd century as opposed to 6th century) and didn´t fight against the saxons (which came only later into the country).

    Another theory is, that the historical Artus wasn´t located in the welsh territory (where most people search for his traces) but rather originated in northern Britain/southern Scotland and was a prince of a small scottish kingdom as well as war leader (Dux bellorum) in 10 battles which were fought by the united armies of the kingdoms between the hadrians and antonine wall against the saxons of northumberland and the picts north of the antonine wall.
    See here:


    To give a brief summary of the most impotant points:

    Carroll claims that Artus was one of three sons of King Aidan of Dalriada (which was written in the "Life of St.Columba") and was later killed in a battle of Miathi (written in "Life of St. Columba" as well).
    Carroll identifies King Loth of Orkney with Cennalat as this can be ranslated with King (Cenna) and Loth (Lat) who eally ruled over the Orkneys and was a king of the Picts and sees reason to believe that the battle of Miathi can be attributed to be the battle of Camlann, as it took place by a crooked (Cam) river named Alan (Lann).
    As this was a battle against the picts Medraud (Mordred) Son of Cennalan (King Loth) could have been involved as well.
    Carroll argues that, although Aidan was king, he let his sons (especially arthur) lead his troops and concerned himself only with governing the country.
    Carroll is even successful in identifying Camelot, as in the kingdom of Dalriada near the antonine wall there was a roman castellum which was named Ad Vallum by the romans and was called Camelon or Camelot by the people living there (and lies near Falkirk) and must have been an impressive sight during the 6th century, as it was rather large and made of stone in contrast to the small wooden hilforts which were normal during this time.
    Arturius ap Aidan even had a sister or half sister named Morgan
    and there were also 2 Druids or Bards in this time and region one named Taliesin (bard of King Urien of Gore) and the other Myrrdin (Merlin) who was bard of Gwenddlau and later became mad after a particular devastating battle at which Gwenddlau died.


    IMHO the most convincing theory so far especially as the names fit and the historical sources cited by Carroll are very near to the time where King Arthur is believed to have lived.
    There are other theories, attributing King Arthur to be Riothamus, Ambrosius Aurelianus or even Vortigern himself (stating that Vortigern isn´t a name but a title) but IMHO they are not as convincing as these two theories.

    So what do you think about the historical Artus?
    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

  • #2
    When Bernard Cornwell set out the right the Warlord Chronicles, he wanted to strip away as much of the legend as possible and get back to the original history. However, once the legend was gone, there wasn't much history left. He was pretty sure there was a warlord named Arthur at about 500 A.D. because there was a sudden spike in the number of British babies with that name about that time. Other than that, history revealed nothing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Cornwell published his three books about Artus from 1995 - 1997 therefore I assume that Carroll had finished his Recherche by 1995.

      Carroll on the other hand published his thesis about Artus being located in Scotland in 1996, so it is probable that Cornwell didn´t have the results of Carroll at hand (and therefore probably, like other Artus-Researchers, didn´t look at Scotland for clues for an historical Artus).

      I haven´t read Corenwells Trilogy but according to a summary of the content it looks like Cornwell is in agreement with Carroll about Artus being not a king, but "just" a Dux Bellorum.

      IMHO Carroll gives so many clues for Arturius mac Aidan, that he seems to be the best candidate so far for the historic Artus.
      It may be possible that there was an Artus before him (and/or that, because of the same name the histories of multiple Arthurs who lived less than 1-2 centuries apart got mixed up), but it looks like Arturius mac Aidan at least had significant influence on the Artus Saga of people like Chretien de Troyes (supplying Names like Camelot, Morgan and Caliburn (Excalibur) ).
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

      Comment


      • #4
        I haven´t read Corenwells Trilogy but according to a summary of the content it looks like Cornwell is in agreement with Carroll about Artus being not a king, but "just" a Dux Bellorum.
        Right. He's the most renown military leader in Britain but, as the bastard son of the King, is not eligible for normal succession. Throughout much of the three novels, his followers are urging him to seize the throne of the High King.

        Comment


        • #5
          a couple years ago there was a History Channel special of Arthur and it suggested that "Arthur" was the successor of Ambrosius Aurelianus.

          Comment


          • #6
            Camulod Chronicles

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Odin
              a couple years ago there was a History Channel special of Arthur and it suggested that "Arthur" was the successor of Ambrosius Aurelianus.
              Did they have anyone special in mind when they thought of Aurelianus´ successor?
              For example the person only known as Riothamus?
              (he was seen by some people as both, successor to Aurelianus and the historical Artus [and with Riothamus being just the title of high king, it is really possible that his name was Artus] )
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

              Comment


              • #8
                One truely interesting thing is the Sword of King Arthur.

                It is, because there exists really a sword in a stone, although not in England but in Italy, near Siena.
                It is the sword of San Galgano.
                Galgano was a knight who had a vision of Archangel Michael who said that he should live a devout life, devoid of all pleasures.
                Galgano then replied that giving up all of his luxuries would be as impossible as casting his sword into the stone beneath him.
                But to his amazement after trying it he succeeded and therefore, from then on, lived a live as a hermit, and later was made a saint.

                As this all happened short before the 12th century (with most of the tales of king arthur being written during the 13th century) it is indeed possible that Troye and other writers of Artus tales were indeed influenced by the stories of San Galgano.

                The sword btw. is indeed some kind of puzzle for historians/archeologists, as according to metallurgical examinations it seems to be de facto from the 12th century and is embedded so deep into the stone that is is impossible to draw it out


                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting....
                  The Normans once controlled southern Italy and England. I'm wondering if there wasn't some cross-pollination of ideas.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Sarmatians, I believe, had a legend of a king finding a sword. Attila, who ruled over the lands of Sarmatia, is said to have found such a sword himself. Now, since Artorius was a hero to the Sarmatians who continued to live in Britain after the collapse of the Empire, it may be his legend continued with them through the middle ages and perhaps became mixed up with some other British leader of the age who actually lead the Sarmatians against the invading German horde.
                    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also, don't you find it funny that the descendents of those conquering Germans would adopt as a national hero a leader of the Britons whom they conquered?
                      http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ned
                        Also, don't you find it funny that the descendents of those conquering Germans would adopt as a national hero a leader of the Britons whom they conquered?
                        Although the legend didn't really pick up steam until the Normans came in. Then suddenly we have folks like Lancelot du Lac. Sacre bleu!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Arthur is a myth.

                          If you're looking for a British leader in the timeframe 490AD- 540AD, who kicked the crap out of the Saxons and established a stable and united kingdom in the Wales/West region (where it was supposed to be) then there is a very real and historically-verifiable candidate. It's Maelgwyn Hir.

                          However Maelgwyn wasn't a very nice person, and was also extremely gay. That's why the myth of Arthur was invented- the need to explain history in a manner that's family-friendly and acceptable to Christians of the time

                          Variants of "Arthur" were already common, and despite what appears to be claimed above, the popular author Bernard Conwell does not have access to accurate naming records from the early Dark Ages.
                          The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The historical Artus (King Arthur)

                            Originally posted by Proteus_MST
                            Another theory is, that the historical Artus wasn´t located in the welsh territory (where most people search for his traces) but rather originated in northern Britain/southern Scotland and was a prince of a small scottish kingdom as well as war leader (Dux bellorum) in 10 battles which were fought by the united armies of the kingdoms between the hadrians and antonine wall against the saxons of northumberland and the picts north of the antonine wall.
                            See here:


                            To give a brief summary of the most impotant points:

                            Carroll claims that Artus was one of three sons of King Aidan of Dalriada (which was written in the "Life of St.Columba") and was later killed in a battle of Miathi (written in "Life of St. Columba" as well).
                            Carroll identifies King Loth of Orkney with Cennalat as this can be ranslated with King (Cenna) and Loth (Lat) who eally ruled over the Orkneys and was a king of the Picts and sees reason to believe that the battle of Miathi can be attributed to be the battle of Camlann, as it took place by a crooked (Cam) river named Alan (Lann).
                            As this was a battle against the picts Medraud (Mordred) Son of Cennalan (King Loth) could have been involved as well.
                            Carroll argues that, although Aidan was king, he let his sons (especially arthur) lead his troops and concerned himself only with governing the country.
                            Carroll is even successful in identifying Camelot, as in the kingdom of Dalriada near the antonine wall there was a roman castellum which was named Ad Vallum by the romans and was called Camelon or Camelot by the people living there (and lies near Falkirk) and must have been an impressive sight during the 6th century, as it was rather large and made of stone in contrast to the small wooden hilforts which were normal during this time.
                            Arturius ap Aidan even had a sister or half sister named Morgan
                            and there were also 2 Druids or Bards in this time and region one named Taliesin (bard of King Urien of Gore) and the other Myrrdin (Merlin) who was bard of Gwenddlau and later became mad after a particular devastating battle at which Gwenddlau died.


                            IMHO the most convincing theory so far especially as the names fit and the historical sources cited by Carroll are very near to the time where King Arthur is believed to have lived.
                            There are other theories, attributing King Arthur to be Riothamus, Ambrosius Aurelianus or even Vortigern himself (stating that Vortigern isn´t a name but a title) but IMHO they are not as convincing as these two theories.

                            So what do you think about the historical Artus?

                            What you are trying to do is fit an unconnected piece of history to a medieval fantasy through the evidence of the similarity of names (which were probably an invention anyway), and ignoring the real history.

                            If you are looking for "Arthur" you are looking for a leader of British (not the Dal Riati! They were Irish invaders! The Brits hated them!) forces who would have fought in the timeframe 490-540 AD and won a significant victory in one of the two areas that really matter- the Severn lands or Merseyside.

                            Artus doesn't fit.
                            The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ned
                              Also, don't you find it funny that the descendents of those conquering Germans would adopt as a national hero a leader of the Britons whom they conquered?
                              Norman propaganda, designed to glorify things that weren't nasty and Saxon. It's no more bizarre than replacing our very real and very English patron saint (St Edward) with the fictitious Greek St George.
                              The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

                              Comment

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