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  • Thoughts on English independence

    So I was reading the Economist the other day, as I often do:

    NOT since the Scottish National Party (SNP) returned 11 MPs to the House of Commons more than 30 years ago has there been such an upsurge of interest in Scottish independence. And this time at least some of the desire for a change in the relationship between England and Scotland is coming from south of the border.

    A number of things have come together to push it up the agenda. This year is the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union; there is a growing possibility that in May the separatist SNP will emerge as the biggest party in the devolved Scottish Parliament; and, a couple of months later, Gordon Brown will almost certainly become the first Scottish prime minister representing a Scottish constituency since Alec Douglas Home in 1963.

    On top of this comes increasing resentment at Westminister towards Labour's “asymmetric” devolution settlement, which allows Scottish MPs (mostly Labour) to vote on health, education and Home Office policies that will not touch their constituents.

    The feeling is strongest among Tories, who were once the union's greatest defenders, but who have been reduced to a single seat in Scotland for their pains. English voters, meanwhile, are being made more aware of how their taxes are used by Labour to allow a substantially higher level of public spending in Scotland than in England, particularly in Labour's Lanarkshire heartlands.

    Until fairly recently I had always thought of myself as a staunch supporter of the union, believing that both nations had benefited greatly from it. What made me begin to change my mind was a visit to Scotland in the summer of 2002 to see what the impact of devolution had been.

    Three years into the life of the new Scottish Parliament, what struck me was the strange mixture of cynicism and almost childish irresponsibility that infected its members.

    AFP

    For pork and talkBoth Labour and Liberal Democrat members of the coalition that ran the executive were really only interested in all the things they were spending money on. And they had more money than they knew what to do with, thanks to Mr Brown's subsidy gusher.The Lib Dems were cockahoop after pushing through free university tuition and free home care for the elderly, neither of which was available in England.

    Negotiations between the coalition partners were in full swing ahead of elections the following year and were said to be fraught. What, I asked, were the issues dividing the parties? “Well, pork”, came the reply from a senior Lib Dem, “what we want is more money spent on the things we want in the places we want. It's pure pork-barrel politics.”

    Was that it? Pretty much, though they were also quite pleased with themselves for having banned smacking and hunting before Westminster got round to it. This was basically old-style municipal socialism with politically-correct trimmings, and someone else picking up the bill. The Scottish Parliament has modest powers to increase taxation, by up to 3p in the pound, but so far, unsurprisingly, it hasn't had to.

    I'm fairly sceptical of the SNP's claim that independence would turn the sluggish Scottish economy into a second Celtic tiger with the added benefit of oil. Save for a booming financial services sector in Edinburgh and Glasgow it is mainly the public sector that has filled the gap left by closure of traditional heavy industries. If the SNP's bullish forecasts for future oil revenues proved wrong, the adjustment would be painful.

    But I think if I were a Scot, faced with a referendum on independence, I'd take the risk and vote for it, on the grounds that the relationship with England has become corrupting and demeaning.

    An equally interesting (and seldom asked) question is what a split would mean for politics in England. Without its 41 Scottish seats, and stripped of some its best talent, how would Labour do? Would it become even-more-New Labour, or would it give up, as it did in the 1980s? And would the Tories feel that they no longer had to make such an effort to appear centrist and caring? Who knows, but it would be different.
    How accurate is this? Is there a general feeling in England that the Scottish are taking your money?
    "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
    -Joan Robinson

  • #2
    They sound like the petulant Iraqis. Cut them loose. Quebecers as well.

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    • #3
      Splitting would be silly.

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      • #4
        Of course it would be silly. They would lose massive bribes to stay.
        (\__/)
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        • #5
          It'd be silly for either.

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          • #6
            I think the talk is of further devolution. I can see an argument made for a federal state, rather than one where several of the regions have more autonomy than the center.

            Think state/provincial legislatures. Imagine the US if DC covered the land east of the Mississippi. Yes, it would be closer to home rule because it would actually elect a lot of congress, but it'd be a pretty crazy setup.
            "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
            -Joan Robinson

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kuciwalker
              It'd be silly for either.
              Yes it is, but that's politics when you desperately want to hold onto something important and are unwilling to contemplate alternatives.
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              (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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              • #8
                If Great Britain won't let Ireland go, why Scotland?
                Besides that,Great Britain should be trying to give Wales away.
                Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                • #9
                  Can the Canadians eject Quebec?

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                  • #10
                    I'm thinking no, but at any rate it would be rather stupid.
                    "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
                    -Joan Robinson

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TCO
                      Can the Canadians eject Quebec?
                      Not really.

                      The English could be envied. They could eject Scotland.
                      (\__/)
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                      (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                      • #12
                        Hang on, the other countries in the union gain far more out of the union than England does. If Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland leave the union, they become small countries - very small countries (or the latter part of another country which is a different matter entirely). If England goes it alone, we become a slightly smaller country as we have the overwhelmingly larger population (51m for England, 5m for Scotland, 3m Wales and 2m for Northern Ireland). And these other countries have had a flow of money towards them. Hell, if wasn't for an act of British parliament, Welsh would be dead and none of this silly Welsh nationalist business would be around today.

                        So really, who loses out by losing the malcontents?
                        Speaking of Erith:

                        "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                        • #13
                          Hell, my home region within England (Yorkshire) has almost the same population as Scotland...
                          Speaking of Erith:

                          "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                          • #14
                            Right, let's try to make some sense of this before I dash off to London in an hour:

                            While a chunk of the SNP vote will be from hardcore Scottish nationalists, a lot of this surge is from disaffected Labour and Lib Dem voters who want to punch New Labour in the face a bit over the Iraq War, the corruption, etc. Since the Tories are so anemic in Scotland these days, the SNP is the only alternative vote open. I believe a similar this in happening to a smaller extent in Wales, where the nationalist-but-not-separatist party Plaid Cymru is also experiencing an increase in popularity.

                            Next, as much as the SNP would love to call a referendum once its in power, there are several problems lying in its way. Labour and the Lib Dems may snatch victory by forming a coalition government again, though I can't see this actually reviving love for the Union so much as prolonging the problem. Secondly, the terms of devolution state that the power over the constitution resides in Parliament at Westminister. The SNP can call all the referendums its wants, not a single one of them has any legal binding. If and when it comes to a vote on Scottish Independence, at the end of the day its London that gets to decide how its held and how the question is phrased. Which is crucial considering how wildly the polls change from pro-Independence to pro-Union depending on how you phrase the question.

                            If, after this torturous process, Scotland does leave, we've then got the task of unraveling 300 years of Union. There are big questions in the air over this. Do we give the Scots a limited form of common citizenship like we do the Irish? The North Sea oil might be in Scottish waters but my gut says all those fancy drilling platforms may be have been a wee too pricey for the Scots and may have had a helping from the English taxpayer. How do we reclaim our investment? Most crucially for the SNP's goal of "out of one union into another", the EU Commission has hinted that Scotland would have to reapply for membership if it left the UK. Becoming a new member means that Scotland has to adopt the Constitution and euro. While it'll be an easier ascension than most since the bulk of primary legislation is already in Scottish law, ask any new member state how long they waited to join. Though I do love the boasting of some Scottish Nationalists about how the EU needs Scottish oil. Well, no dear. If we wanted it that much, we could just do a Norway arrangement on you, where you pay into the budget and adopt our laws to gain access to our market but you're not actually properly in the club. And though unlikely, never doubt that the UK, in a fit of spite if nothing else, could veto Scottish EU membership indefinately if it wanted.

                            All this said, it confuses my little brain which was soaked in Canadian politics during its formative years, on why we can't just get all the interested parties together to sit down and hammer out a federal arrangement. I've got no problem if the Scots want to ban things or provide things free or whatever, but instead of it all being funded on an £11 billion subsidy from England (and by England, I mean the Southeast), give them the power over their taxes and let them run themselves properly for a bit.

                            Yes, in a Federal UK, England would dominate the federal Parliament. So what? If you set out the terms of federalism properly, it doesn't impair the other nations from running their affairs as they see fit. Ontario-Quebec dominates Canada yet it can't control what Prince Edward's Island does.

                            Would England be affected much by Scottish Independece? Probably not. Most English don't even give it a second thought, which is part of the problem. There are 50 million English who are more concerned about their mortgages than the Union and a good chunk of those believe Scotland begins somewhere north of King's Cross Station. While there are 5 million Scots who are stuck in a halfway house where they don't really have powers over their own affairs since they're tied to the Treasury in London's subsidy nor are they fully part of the Union, so the West Lothain Question* hangs over all our heads. As for the Welsh, we've sorta just put them to one side and there's no talk on the status of their Assembly.

                            And no one at all remembers us poor Cornish, trapped and assimilated into England...

                            *West Lothain Question: Scottish MP's can vote on matters purely for England while English MP's can't on equivelent Scottish matters since they're handled by Edinburgh. Health is a big one. The Scottish vote got foundation hospitals approved in England while the Scottish Parliament stopped them in Scotland.
                            Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
                            -Richard Dawkins

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                            • #15
                              I am sure the majority of people want to punch New Labour for how they have been in recent years, and I am hoping they lose their grip on power sooner rather than later. The only problem is, who is going to replace them? The Tories again? Joy of joys...
                              Speaking of Erith:

                              "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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