Israeli settlers

[Arrian]

Are you being deliberately dense?

Gaza settlers likely believe in a variety of things. We've discussed the group that perhaps moved there for the nice homes and whatnot, and then moved on to those who went in because of ideology. Greater Israel and all that. Or are you going to claim that many settlers moved to Gaza because they love Palestinians and wanted to be near them?

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Again, I dont think the Baltics 1945-1991 could be called a normal civil society.

But youre saying that if A lets settlers B, live in peace, either because A isnt the sort to commit massacres, or because A is frightened of the totalitarian state behind B, then B earns MORE sympathy than folks threatened with massacre.

Are you deliberately missing the point? It's not 1991. I'm not making a moral judgment as to how things got the way they are. I'm saying that those ethnic Russians who live in the Baltics today were born there, and lived fairly normal lives there (despite your intimation, post-stalinist soviet society might have been dislikable, but it was a functioning civil society...unlike Gaza). There may be divisions in Estonian society along ethnic lines, but for the most part they are a single society. Ripping out a piece of a society due to its ethnicity is far different from moving an almost wholly separate society which has been transplanted directly in the midst of a hostile host society.

As far as I know, ethnic Russians and ethnic Estonians are able to move back and forth into areas dominated by one or the other. They often live next door to each other. They go to work together. They are parts of a whole. The ethnic Russians therefore have deeper roots to their home than did Jewish settlers in Gaza or than do Jewish settlers in some of the stupider settlements in the West Bank. The ties that bind ethnic Russians to their homes in Estonia mean more to me than do those which bind settlers to their isolated, armed encampments. If they feel pain at leaving because of some idiotic ideology, then they can expect little sympathy from me.

[Edan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


i think youre thinking of Kfar etzion, which in the west bank, and will almost certainly not be evacuated.

I thought I heard about it during the Gaza pullout.

Edit: Looks like it's Kfar Darom I'm thinking about:

Throughout the duration of Kfar Darom's existence - from the return to this place in 1973, and with tremendous vigor in the past five years, the great devotion its residents displayed is almost incomprehensible. To a bystander, it sometimes seemed as if Kfar Darom in this generation was trying to compete with the heroism of the defenders of Kfar Darom who were evacuated in 1948.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtDisengagement.jhtml?itemNo=616205

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Are you being deliberately dense?

-Arrian

No. I dont know what you think the settler believe.

[Arrian]

I edited my post.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Most of the Gazan settlers didnt persecute anyone, they just lived in their little compounds, growing stuff in greenhouses.

...and causing roads which Palestinians have difficulty crossing to be driven all across the occupied territories. And bringing a heavier hand of occupation down on the Palestinians living around them as the soldiers moved in to protect the settlers. And...

I'm not saying that the settlers are inquisitors. I'm saying that the reason somebody suffers is important in gaining my sympathy.

[KrazyHorse]

Or are you going to claim that many settlers moved to Gaza because they love Palestinians and wanted to be near them?

Suicide bombers and settlers: two groups who just want to be near the other.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Are you deliberately missing the point? It's not 1991. I'm not making a moral judgment as to how things got the way they are. I'm saying that those ethnic Russians who live in the Baltics today were born there, and lived fairly normal lives there (despite your intimation, post-stalinist soviet society might have been dislikable, but it was a functioning civil society...unlike Gaza). There may be divisions in Estonian society along ethnic lines, but for the most part they are a single society. Ripping out a piece of a society due to its ethnicity is far different from moving an almost wholly separate society which has been transplanted directly in the midst of a hostile host society.

As far as I know, ethnic Russians and ethnic Estonians are able to move back and forth into areas dominated by one or the other. They often live next door to each other. They go to work together. They are parts of a whole. The ethnic Russians therefore have deeper roots to their home than did Jewish settlers in Gaza or than do Jewish settlers in some of the stupider settlements in the West Bank. The ties that bind ethnic Russians to their homes in Estonia mean more to me than do those which bind settlers to their isolated, armed encampments. If they feel pain at leaving because of some idiotic ideology, then they can expect little sympathy from me.

1. In the estonian thread i asked spff if it would make a difference if it WAS 1991. I think Wern made a mistake in establishing a seperate thread. My point was entirely in the context of the parallel, and by seperating it hes made my point unclear.
2. Are you honestly saying that ethnic russians dont want to leave Estonia cause they would miss Estonians? I very much doubt it. I think they just like where they live, and also believe that moving their was right, and so dont want to leave. There are settlers living where they are for a variety of reasons - attachment to specific terrain, to the history of where they live, whatever. I dont think it makes sense to judge on that basis. If someone is an internet nerd who doesnt know their neighbors, do they deserive less sympathy when they are deported then the president of the neighborbood association? And if there are Russians (as I believe there are) living in all Russian towns in Estonia, would it be reasonable to deport them? Perhaps folks who make these distinctions are not consciously hypocritical, but I find their distinctions wrong headed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Are you being deliberately dense?

Gaza settlers likely believe in a variety of things. We've discussed the group that perhaps moved there for the nice homes and whatnot, and then moved on to those who went in because of ideology. Greater Israel and all that. Or are you going to claim that many settlers moved to Gaza because they love Palestinians and wanted to be near them?

-Arrian

Greater Israel and all that is too vague. It could encompass everyone from Kahanists who think Arabs are scum and should themselves be deported, to folks who simply think Israel has a legitimate claim to Gaza and the West Bank and are disappointed that the Arabs dont accept it. I can understand that you cant get your head around the former. I can understand that you disagree with the latter. Im having a hard time getting my head around that you CANT get your hear around the latter, to the point where you think its nuts.

Cause you know, I think at some level the Israeli claim to the West Bank is not without justification. But Im a pragmatist, and would gladly give up that claim for peace, which is more important. (And I reckon the number of Israelis who feel that way is MUCH larger than the number of settlers ) But thats because I think giving up the claim WILL lead to peace, which I certainly cant prove.

[Arrian]

It could encompass everyone from Kahanists who think Arabs are scum and should themselves be deported, to folks who simply think Israel has a legitimate claim to Gaza and the West Bank

And I think both of those beliefs (and everything inbetween) is pretty crazy. Obviously the Kahanist one is the craziest.

By the way, the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Israel's claim to the land is only part of it. The other part is the fact that there is another group with their own claim to the land, already living there, and angry as **** about it. Given that set of circumstances, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around an ideology that says "let's go build a bunch of hilltop fort communities over there, it'll be GREAT!"

-Arrian

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Cause you know, I think at some level the Israeli claim to the West Bank is not without justification.

Give me one reason beyond having won a war. The historical Jewish nation before the diaspora?
Tomorrow I will claim some chunk of Ethiopia, since I'm dead sure my ancestors at some times lived there and were expelled. (Or, the biblical version: Let's occupy Eden!)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


And I think both of those beliefs (and everything inbetween) is pretty crazy. Obviously the Kahanist one is the craziest.

By the way, the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Israel's claim to the land is only part of it. The other part is the fact that there is another group with their own claim to the land, already living there, and angry as **** about it. Given that set of circumstances, I find it difficult to wrap my mind around an ideology that says "let's go build a bunch of hilltop fort communities over there, it'll be GREAT!"

-Arrian

Israelis lived in fortified settlements before 1948. They didnt expect life to be easy. I dont think the settlers in the remote settlements did either. I guess by that standard folks who climb everest, folks who go to warzones to deliver aid, etc are all nuts.


I will PM you on the legitimacy question, as im not in the mood to debate 3 or more people at once.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Give me one reason beyond having won a war. The historical Jewish nation before the diaspora?
Tomorrow I will claim some chunk of Ethiopia, since I'm dead sure my ancestors at some times lived there and were expelled. (Or, the biblical version: Let's occupy Eden!)

Wikipedia:

Re-established recent Jewish communities

Some of the 323 settlements were established on sites that had been inhabited by Jewish communities during the British Mandate of Palestine. In the case of Hebron, an association comprised of some descendants of pre-1929 Jewish residents of Hebron published a 1997 statement dissociating themselves from the present settlers in Hebron, calling them an obstacle to peace.[10]

partial listing only

* Jerusalem – Jewish presence since biblical times, various surrounding communities and neighborhoods, including Kfar Shiloah - settled by Yemeni Jews in 1884, Jewish residents evacuated in 1938, settled again in 2004
* Gush Etzion communities - established between 1927–1947, destroyed 1948, reestablished beginning 1967
* Hebron - Jewish presence since biblical times, forced out in 1929 (because of Hebron massacre), some families return to the ruins in 1931 but British have them evacuate again to "prevent another massacre", resettled in 1967
* Kfar Darom - established in 1946, evacuated in 1948, resettled in 1970, evacuated in 2005 as part of the withdrawal of the Gaza Strip.

The Old Yishuv refers to all the Jews living in Palestine before the aliyah of 1882 by the Zionist movement. The Old Yishuv people were Orthodox Jews living mainly in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. Smaller communities were in Jaffa, Haifa, Peki'in, Acre, Nablus, Shfaram and until 1779 also in Gaza. A large part of the Old Yishuv concentrated his time in Torah studies and received donations from Jews in the Diaspora.

The New Yishuv refers to those who went out of the Old City walls of Jerusalem in the 1860s, the establishment of Petah Tikva and the First Aliyah of 1882 followed by the founding of settlements until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

effects of 1929 violence:

The prospects for renewed financial support for the yishuv upset Arab leaders who feared economic domination by the Zionists. Led by Haj Amin al-Husseini once again, rumors of a Jewish plot to seize control of Muslim holy places began to spread. Violence erupted soon after, causing extensive damage. Rioting and looting were rampant throughout Palestine. In Jerusalem, Muslims provoked the violence and tensions by building and praying on or near the holiest place in the world for Jews, the Western Wall. By late August, the Arabs, in well organized formation, attacked Jewish settlements near Jerusalem. The disturbances spread to Hebron and Tsfat, including many settlements in between, and on the Kfar Dorom kibbutz in the Gaza Strip. After six days of rioting, the British finally brought in troops to quell the disturbance. Despite the fact that Jews had been living in Gaza and Hebron for centuries, following these riots, the British forced Jews to leave their homes and prohibited Jews from living in the Gaza strip and Hebron in an attempt to appease Arabs and quell violence. By the end of the rioting, 135 Jews were killed, with more than 300 wounded.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Give me one reason beyond having won a war. The historical Jewish nation before the diaspora?
Tomorrow I will claim some chunk of Ethiopia, since I'm dead sure my ancestors at some times lived there and were expelled. (Or, the biblical version: Let's occupy Eden!)

Im not interested in rehashing the claim of Jews to live in the land of Israel. In the thread on Estonia I was merely taking issue with some questions about sympathy for evacuated settlers. You gave a very direct question about the issue of land ownership, and i answered it as best I could. Arrian has raised the issue of the sanity of the settlers, and I am trying to answer him.

[Sirotnikov]

I was under the impression he was asking to explain the claim for the disputed west bank and Gaza, no for a jewish land per se.