Israeli settlers

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Israeli settlers

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


AFAIK the growth of the settlements encompasses palestinian farmed land as well.

I heard of palestinian olive groves getting bulldozed to make place for growing israelis settlements.

afaik that relates to other disputes, and is sometimes pure nastiness. AFAIK there are no cases of settlements being founded on uncontested village owned land.

[lord of the mark]

let me be absolutely clear

I believe the policy of the Likud govt from 1977 on to establish settlements in heavily populated areas deep in the west bank (the previous Labour govt had only build settlements in areas adjoing the pre-67 armistice line and in other areas they considered likely to end up in Israel after a withdrawl from much of the West Bank) was a profound mistake. That mistaken approach is one of the reasons I have supported the Israeli Labour Party. I dislike the ideology of many settlers, and oppose the unprovoked violent actions they take against their arab neighbors. I believe the decision to evacuate the settlers from Gaza was a correct one. I believe it will be necessary to evacuate settlers from many of the settlements in the West Bank - basically all except for a few settlement blocks close to the pre-68 armistice line. I think it was wise for Israel to agree not to found new settlements as part of the Oslo accord.

If I was actually speaking with an ideological settler, and enunciating my positions, they would call me a traitor to the Jewish people, a naive dove, and far worse names.


BUT - Im quite sure there are hateful ideologies among Russians living in Estonia. Im quite sure the Soviet attempt to settle Estonia with Russians was a mistake. Im sure Spif agrees on this. Yet he can recognize that Russians in Estonia are humans entitled to rights. I only asked for a similar sympathy for the settlers. Thats all. I was not intending to start a political debate about Begin's policies. Just as Spiff was not defending Stalins policies in annexing Estonia.

[KrazyHorse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Israeli settlers

Originally posted by lord of the mark



No. Of course not. It was a specific reply to Wernazumas question. In another thread in which Spiff expressed concern for the rights of Russians in Estonia, I asked him if he now supports the rights of settlers. This led to questions about the way Israeli settlers are thought of - I was thinking particularly of the lack of sympathy expressed for them during the evacutation from Gaza. It was very much in the context of the Estonian parallel, and it was NOT about state policy, but about attitudes toward human beings.

Wern decided to make a seperate thread because he SPECIFICALLY did not want to threadjack the other thread, and asked specifically about the land ownership question. To which I responded. Since this thread was started to avoid threadjacking, I suggest you also not threadjack it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Russian colonists in the Baltic states much more integrated into the society whose land they colonised than are Jewish settlers into Palestinian society (from whom they're generally separated by walls and people with guns)? Please note I'm not trying to argue with the basic premise that settlers are people and that it's wrong to blow up settler babies etc. I'm just pointing out that the two situations (while sharing certain similarities) are not wholly comparable.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israeli settlers

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Russian colonists in the Baltic states much more integrated into the society whose land they colonised than are Jewish settlers into Palestinian society (from whom they're generally separated by walls and people with guns)? Please note I'm not trying to argue with the basic premise that settlers are people and that it's wrong to blow up settler babies etc. I'm just pointing out that the two situations (while sharing certain similarities) are not wholly comparable.

Yah, well, if Israel had annexed the West bank, if Israeli Jew outnumbered the West Bank pals by like 100 to 1, and so were able to create a Jewish majority on the West Bank with a tiny part of the Israeli population, and if Israel had deported by the tens of thousands not just Palestinian nationalists but any pals interested in any political activity other than the ruling Israeli party, etc, - well in those circumstances I suspect Israeli settlers would be a lot more relaxed.

Actually Ive been told that in the early 80s, before the first intifadah, it WAS more relaxed, at least in some settlements.

But I do get your point. The West Bank aint exactly like Estonia.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not at all attempting to argue that the USSR's actions were morally superior to Israel's actions in that sphere. I'm pointing out that it's different to talk about a forced withdrawal when the settlers are well-integrated into the receiving society than when they live encapsulated lives.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I'm not at all attempting to argue that the USSR's actions were morally superior to Israel's actions in that sphere. I'm pointing out that it's different to talk about a forced withdrawal when the settlers are well-integrated into the receiving society than when they live encapsulated lives.

Maybe. Note Im not suggesting either that Russian speaking Estonians be deported, or that Israeli settlers should stay in all the settlements they currently live in. All Im saying is that when they ARE evacuated, the pain this causes them, and the trauma to Israeli society, should not be lightly dismissed.

[KrazyHorse]

I think that most of the ones in Gaza's pain should be pretty lightly dismissed. Most had not been there even a single generation, and they lived in tiny compounds surrounded by hordes of people who hated them.

I tend to have little sympathy for people who put themselves in precarious situations just to be dicks to other people.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I think that most of the ones in Gaza's pain should be pretty lightly dismissed. Most had not been there even a single generation, and they lived in tiny compounds surrounded by hordes of people who hated them.

I tend to have little sympathy for people who put themselves in precarious situations just to be dicks to other people.

I dont think that was their motivation, and I think you may underestimate the pain of being uprooted from someplace youve lived less than a generation,but have nonetheless made your home.

[KrazyHorse]

I dont think that was their motivation

They can pretty it up with a "historical right" to live somewhere, but the motivated settlers fundamentally wanted lebensraum for the Jews at the expense of the Arabs.

I call that being a dick.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dont think that was their motivation, and I think you may underestimate the pain of being uprooted from someplace youve lived less than a generation,but have nonetheless made your home.

They had it coming to them. How you can find sympathy for the settlers and not the Palestinians they themselves uprooted exposes your deep hypocrisy on the subject...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


They had it coming to them. How you can find sympathy for the settlers and not the Palestinians they themselves uprooted exposes your deep hypocrisy on the subject...

who said I lack sympathy for the Palestinians. I have plenty of sympathy for palestinians, and I hope peace brings them benefits.


But again, Pals havent been uprooted by the settlers. The Pals in the West Bank and Gaza are still there, and suffer under the conditions in those places. Im not sure how they are "uprooted"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

I dont think that was their motivation

They can pretty it up with a "historical right" to live somewhere, but the motivated settlers fundamentally wanted lebensraum for the Jews at the expense of the Arabs.

I call that being a dick.

They didnt pretty it up, they genuinely believed in that right.

You can call it whatever you want.

BTW, are you saying that settlers who lived in more luxurious accomodations, who moved for a better living standard, would gain more sympathy from you than the Gaza settlers?

[KrazyHorse]

Yes, actually.

[Arrian]

It's easy to move those people. You just offer them a better deal elsewhere. The ideological nutbags are the problem.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

they genuinely believed in that right

And they are dicks for believing in that "right".