"The Hamas activists executed him with smiles"

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Poor chegitz.

Poor me

[Straybow]

Ho hum. Licensing a religious organization in 1973 (or 1978, depending on the source) is hardly "funding Hamas."

Israel does nothing to turn men into barbarians. They do that all by themselves.

[Barnabas]

Cant palestinians accept israel if they are given complete and total authority over that muslim temple of theirs in Jerusalem?

[Pekka]

Well, if you give me money, and I'll turn into a jerk, it's me being a jerk.

[Combat Ingrid]

I read the title as "...smileys"

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Cant palestinians accept israel if they are given complete and total authority over that muslim temple of theirs in Jerusalem?

Probably not. Neither side really wants peace.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
They funded and natured Hamas in the 1970s and 80s to build them up to be an alternative to Fatah. Now the two groups are fighting a civil war. This is Israel's baby as much as it is the Palestinians.

considering that the Muslim Brotherhood in Eqypt was generally non-violent, certainly not terrorist in its approach to politics, and Hamas originated out of that tradition, there was no particular reason for Israel to have expected them to be like this. Once Israel found out what they were, they opposed them, and throughout the 90s called on Fatah and the PA to disarm them. Arafat refused, and funded and used Hamas, knowing full well what they were.

Israel, painfully, learned their mistake. Now, Fatah seems to have finally learned their mistake.

Now is not the time to blame Israel OR Fatah. Now is the time to see Hamas beaten, so that Israelis and Palestinians can both move on to a brighter future.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Cant palestinians accept israel if they are given complete and total authority over that muslim temple of theirs in Jerusalem?

That is one issue that needs to be resolved - soveriegnty over the temple mount. I think its resolvable between Israelis like Peretz and Olmert on the one hand, and Abbas and Erekat on the other.

The problem right now isnt the gap between the govt of Israel and the Presidency of the PA, so much as its the death struggle between Fatah and Hamas.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Hamas is the military arm of the Islamic Association (not he Islamic Association for/of Palestine, which was an American organization), which was founded in the 1976.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=western_support_for_islamic_militancy_202704#western_support_for_islamic_militancy_202704

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2002/06/08/1320881.php (a United Press article, though it was written after the take over by the Moonies).

http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html

Also:

According to Charles Freeman, a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, “Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet, which had a feeling that they could use it to hem in the PLO.”

As for your sources:

The Hanania article is filled with facts but it does a great job of weaving a non-existant picture, from tons of details, constantly making jumps from one subject to another, and from one period to another.

The constant jumps between 1979 (Sheikh Yassin sets up shop) and 1994 (supposedly first suicide bombing) and then 2004, and then back to the 70s, are made to confuse you. Why not present a single streamlined time scale?

This causes people to lose focus and see non existing connections.

For instance take this purposeful tying up of unrelated facts:

Begin and Shamir understood exactly what they had created. Knesset Member Avraham Poraz (Shinui) was among a litany of Israeli leaders who blamed Likud for Hamas. "The Likud has got Hamas on its hands because it refused to talk to the PLO," he said.

It is supposed that Poraz made that statement, blaming Begin and Shamir for creating the PLO. Yet this is impossible. Poraz could only talk about Hamas in the 90s, when its existance name became common knowledge.

Dovish Poraz was most probably blaming Likud's "inaction" in the peace process vis-a-vis the palestinians, for "getting Hamas on its hands". Blaming no advancement in the peace process leading to the extremization of Palestinian society is no where near "blaming likud for creating Hamas".

This article merely tries to mask the actual reality.

The Mujamma al Islami is presented as the great Israeli scheme of destabilising the PLO. However this is false.

This organization was one of hundreds of local religious charities that dealt with improving palestinian social life. Not only was it one of hundreds - it was, as the article later concedes - totally non violent for a long period of time.

What this article fails to mention, is that the organization was then disbanded by Israel in 1983, under a Likud govt. and all its members jailed for planning terrorism. Yassin was released as part of a prison-swap deal in 1985, and later jailed again in 1989 after it became clear he was the leader of Hamas, and held in prison until Israel was forced to give him up in 1997.

How does that support a policy of Israel "supporting" Hamas?


The cooperative research link does not appear valid.

Indybay sure sounds trust worthy, quoting about 4 unnamed Israeli / US intelligence and foreign office sources. We know how those unnamed sources like to talk to indy press


Che, you gotta stop checking third rate sites for your news. I know it is 'cool' and revolutionary, but it is as dumb as sh*t.

[Sirotnikov]

Che you're performing a giant leap of faith from a true fact:

Israel supported peaceful Islamic charities in the 70s, hoping to stabilize the area.

to a false fact:
Israel intentionally financed Hamas to be a future political rival to Arafat and an obstacle to peace.

The fact that one charity eventually grew to become Hamas does not prove that Israel planned this or financed it. On the contrary - once the Mujamma Islami started to grow and collect weapons - Israel cracked down on it, putting everyone in jail.

Your friends' idiotic claim doesn't hold water.

True: Every palestinian born in the 70s probably had some sort of contact with Israel or received aid / services / whatever, from Israeli governing authorities. That is because... Israel was the local government. (duh!)

True: Some palestinians eventually became terrorists and arch terrorists.

Silly Conclusion: Israel financed its own worst enemies, in order to block any chance of peace!!!!

[Sirotnikov]

Hamas is the military arm of the Islamic Association (not he Islamic Association for/of Palestine, which was an American organization), which was founded in the 1976.

the Islamic Association ceased existing in 1983, when it was banned by Israel and its members jailed.

Hamas can, if one really wants to stretch it, be called a military wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. (It has strong ties with it).

The muslim brotherhood was created in egypt. It was accepted as a legitimate political body in Jordan.

False conclusion: Egypt and Jordan created Hamas!!!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Che, you gotta stop checking third rate sites for your news. I know it is 'cool' and revolutionary, but it is as dumb as sh*t.

Hes too busy making music.

http://www.israel-music.com/sheygetz/stop_eating_cakes/

[Sirotnikov]

Sadly this is going on quite a lot, and the soldiers have no policing authority against fu*kwad Israelis.

What I do find surprising, is the idiotic response by Peretz.
Instead of trying to reveal and treat the phenomena, he is talking about publicity. This proves once again, that Peretz is an utter idiot, a loser a$$hole, who has a cabbage for a brain. I hope he dies.

taken from: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...352098,00.html

video can be seen there.

Olmert on settler violence: I am ashamed

(VIDEO) Prime minister watches video clip published in Ynet in which Jewish woman settler in Hebron attacks Arab family: 'This is brutality, arrogance, and contempt that can't be come to terms with.'
Settler doesn't show for interrogation, summoned again for Monday. Jewish neighborhood in Hebron returns fire, starts arming women and youth with cameras.

Ronny Sofer


VIDEO - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert responded for the first time Sunday to the incident in the Tel Rumeida section of Hebron in which a settler woman verbally attacked an Arab family. A video clip of the incident, filmed by the Palestinian family, was published last week in Ynet .


"I saw it and I was simply ashamed," responded Olmert. "This is evil and provocation for its own sake."

Jewish settler woman caught on tape verbally attacking her neighbor

In the video clip, which was passed on to Ynet by the human rights organization B'tselem, the Abu-Aisha family is seen being harassed by their Jewish neighbors in the Jewish neighborhood of Hebron. According to the family, this has been going on for some time.

The film was taken by Raja'a Abu-Aisha, 16, and documents an argument between two neighbors living in the Jewish neighborhood of Ramat Yishai. The argument quickly deteriorates into name-calling, and the Jewish neighbor continually calls her neighbor "whore." The Abu-Aisha claim that this is only one example of the daily suffering they endure.

Police Perspective
Police official: Hebron incident reflects reality / Efrat Weiss
(VIDEO) Senior official in West Bank Police responds to video clip revealed in Ynet showing settler cursing Palestinian family. Settler summoned for police investigation, but doesn't show. B'Tselem, of all groups, asks not to turn her into scapegoat
Full Story

In the weekly cabinet meeting Sunday, Olmert responded to the video. "I expect from everyone, including the settlement leaders, to disagree with this.

"This puts out a bad name for all of this population. This is brutality, arrogance, and contempt that can't be come to terms with, and I am speaking in the name of the entire government," Olmert said.

Following the publication of these images from Hebron, Defense Minister Amir Peretz ordered a thorough and immediate investigation of the issue a day after the event took place. He instructed Central Command Chief Maj. Gen. Yair Naveh to carry out an immediate investigation of the entire event, which in his words embarrasses the State of Israel.

The defense minister also said that images such as those seen in the video "turn into material for incitement against Israel all over the world."

The settler woman shown in the video, Ifat Elkobi, was summoned to the West Bank police for investigation last week, but didn't show. She was sent an addition summons for Monday.

The police said to Ynet that she promised to show up this time for investigation. However, the police also noted that if she fails to show again, a subpoena will be issued against her.

Following the incident, the Jewish settlement in Hebron decided to arm women and youth to document future incidents in which Jews are attacked in the city. A campaign to raise money for this endeavor was embarked upon recently.

Chairman of the board of the Jewish community in Hebron Noam Arnon said that women and youth will be trained to video "while taking shelter, and to distinguish between left-wing organizations who are carrying out provocations together with Fatah families in the city."

According to him, the events that will necessitate filming are throwing stones or Molotov cocktails and shooting at Jews. Arnon also said, "The cameras will be equipped with long-range lenses for security reasons so that while the Arabs aren't afraid of approached the Jews, Jews will manage when faced with terrorist elements."

Efrat Weiss contributed to this report

[Az]

What I do find surprising, is the idiotic response by Peretz.
Instead of trying to reveal and treat the phenomena, he is talking about publicity. This proves once again, that Peretz is an utter idiot, a loser a$$hole, who has a cabbage for a brain. I hope he dies.

wtf?!

this is actually, the completely correct thing to do. "reveal and treat the phenomena"? what's to reveal? that jews and arabs in hebron hate each other's guts? and how, pray tell, do you propose treating this situation, without a complete solution to the conflict?