Barbarian invasions and history repeating itself

[Dis]

Perhaps a non PC thread. Hey, no one likes to be called a barbarian. . My theories may be way off base, I am by no means an expert. Just some ideas running around my head.

I think it is only human nature of people to migrate to areas of better economic opportunities. One cannot fault them for that. The question is, can any parallels be drawn from the massive migration today to that of the barbarians into roman lands in the middle ages?

here's a quote from wiki:

Until recently it has been common to speak of "barbarian invasions" sweeping in from beyond Imperial borders and bringing about the end of the Roman Empire. Modern historians now acknowledge that this presents an incomplete portrait of a complex time of migration. In some important cases, such as that of the Franks entering Gaul, settlement of the newcomers took place over many decades, as groups seeking new economic opportunities crossed into Roman territory, retaining their own tribal leadership, and acculturating to, or displacing the Gallo-Roman society, often without widespread violence. This migration of the barbarians into the Roman empire took place over such a long period of time that, the Romans did not even perceive them as a threat. By speaking of this time as a time of "Barbarian invasions," it implies that it was an organized attack, which it certainly was not. Other outsiders, like Theodoric of the Ostrogoths, although warlike, also saw themselves as successors to the Roman tradition, employing cultured Roman ministers, like Cassiodorus. Like the Goths, the Franks and the Burgundians many of the outsiders were foederati, military allies of the Empire, who had earned rights of settlement.

So can any parallels be drawn to arabs and muslims moving into Europe and latinos moving into the United States? Are we doomed to the same fate of the roman empire? I believe we are. But things may not be as dramatic as back then. But who knows, the burning of rome may be compare to a nuke going off in NYC. While as back then, a lot of it was peaceful migration, there will be wars fight with various groups of peoples and ideologies.

There are differences though. Most of the barbarians were converted into christianity. Where as in the case of the muslims today, they retain their faith when migrating to european countries.

I can't see history repeating itself exactly. It's unlikely we would ever fall into any form of fuedalism. But I can't help but wonder what the future holds in store for western civilization.

[Harry Tuttle]

Actually I would point out Rome's inherent political instability as being the main culprit. The stagnation of technology, lack of peasant involvement in politics, and the constant civil wars helped bring everything down more so than a bunch barbarians.

[OzzyKP]

I have zero concern about latinos moving in to the United States. They are as much part of western civilization as we are. They are Christian, they share our values, and aren't hostile to our country or civilization. We might find ourselves in a country that has more of a taste for soccer and speaks a bit more Spanish, but no seeds of collapse are being planted.

As for the Muslim immigration into Europe... I dunno...

[LordShiva]

Immigration, syncretism, blending of cultures and birth of new ones, etc.

[Dis]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I have zero concern about latinos moving in to the United States. They are as much part of western civilization as we are. They are Christian, they share our values, and aren't hostile to our country or civilization. We might find ourselves in a country that has more of a taste for soccer and speaks a bit more Spanish, but no seeds of collapse are being planted.

As for the Muslim immigration into Europe... I dunno...

yeah that's what I try to tell my mother. She's not racist against mexicans etc, but she doesn't care for the fact everything in our city is in spanish now. I try to tell her it is much better than in Europe. Latinos are fairly laid back and don't treat their women too badly. They aren't afraid of things like alcohol. And mexican women are hot.

[Sandman]

So can any parallels be drawn to arabs and muslims moving into Europe?

The whole "Eurabia" thing is grotesquely overblown. There's a veritable cottage industry based around it in the US, but it's nothing but hot air and fluff. Constantly thinking France = Europe doesn't help either.

[BeBMan]

Yeah the fall of the Occident is near - like always in the last 2000 years.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Sandman


The whole "Eurabia" thing is grotesquely overblown. There's a veritable cottage industry based around it in the US, but it's nothing but hot air and fluff. Constantly thinking France = Europe doesn't help either.

There has been a rediculous amount of declinist thinking among conservatives lately. It seems like every time I go to the bookstore there is a new book in the current events section ranting on about "Decadent Neo-Liberal Postmodernist Transnationalists, aided by Left-wing PC nut Multiculturalists, are causing the fall of Western Civilization" and similar BS.

[Odin]

Re: Barbarian invasions and history repeating itself

[SIZE=1]I can't see history repeating itself exactly. It's unlikely we would ever fall into any form of fuedalism. But I can't help but wonder what the future holds in store for western civilization.

I've read many suggestions that the modern West is similar to Graeco-Roman Civilization during the middle of the Hellenistic Period (around 150BC)

[Saras]

When did I put LordShiva on ignore?...

[lord of the mark]

ya see, the whole problem is that the Romans had bilingual education, in German AND in Latin, for the immigrant barbarian youngsters, which meant they never really assimilated - oh, wait. The Romans didnt have universal public education you say? Well then theres the issue of languages needed to get jobs - oh wait, the Barbs, like most Romans, were farmers?

Nope, no parallel. Esp not wrt to US and hispanics. I still think the Euros will have more problems assimilating their muslims, but even that problem is exaggerated, simply because people make silly assumptions about birth rates.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Odin



There has been a rediculous amount of declinist thinking among conservatives lately. It seems like every time I go to the bookstore there is a new book in the current events section ranting on about "Decadent Neo-Liberal Postmodernist Transnationalists, aided by Left-wing PC nut Multiculturalists, are causing the fall of Western Civilization" and similar BS.

Usually next to "The eevil neocons and the idiot Bush and horrible fundies are ending liberty around the world and creating fascism" books.


Exagerration sells, Im afraid.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Saras
When did I put LordShiva on ignore?...

I think Dis made you do it in one of last week's OT threads: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161471

[molly bloom]

Re: Barbarian invasions and history repeating itself

Originally posted by Dis

Most of the barbarians were converted into christianity.

Except sometimes it was the 'wrong' kind of Christianity.

Arian Lombards in northern Italy, Arian Vandals in North Africa, Arian Visigoths in Spain.

The usual peaceful settlement of disputes amongst Christians followed.


It should also be noted that who or what is a barbarian depends upon wheer you're standing- the Romans considered the Parthians barbarians, but the Parthians enjoyed Hellenistic culture.

The Arabs were the inheritors of Hellenistic culture and science and Roman engineering.

[One_more_turn]

Romans ran themselves into the ground. They had one equivalent "Sherman's March to the Sea" in every decade from 193AD on. As if things were not bad enough, Diocletian installed a monstrous bureaucracy and Constantine bled the nation dry with his taxation scheme. In the end, there was no point for ordinary Romans to maintain the "Evil Empire", so it fell.