A Hindu view of Christianity

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by cronos_qc


I don't know if kabbalah is having more elements from Greek mysticism than from other mysticism. (Surely not from Indians, but from egyptians). Or that the books of John is mostly using greek symbolism? But they are some astrological symbols used in the books of John, I'm not sure astrology is coming from the greeks.

It's been a while since I read liberal theology books (8ish years) but my memory was that Revelation of John was linked with Greek Mysticism by theologians.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

The version of Hell is also something that wasn't in old school formal Judaism, I think. I don't remember much mention of it in the OT, but it is refered to in the NT in stories several times (Which implies it was developed in the culture).

Jon Miller

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I am not at all sure Khabbala (sp?) was arround 2000 years ago.

JM

kabbala proper wasnt no. The first major work in the Kabbala tradition is the book of Bahir, which is circa 1100 CE IIRC. The main work, the Zohar, though attributed to a 2nd cent CE rabbi, is pretty definitively believed to have been written by the man who "discovered" it in 13th C spain.

OTOH Gershom Scholem, the greatest scientific historian of Jewish mysticism of all time, believed that some Kabbalistic doctrines descended from Gnosticism. OTOH they could have come from neoPlatonist ideas in Christianity - (the book of Bahir was written in Provence, the home of the Catharists, themselves influenced by ideas from the East, including Persia)

I dont recall how Scholem relates Gnosticism to Merkava mysticism, but I think he considered them different, with different roots.

I also dont recall at what point the transmigration of souls emerges as a doctrine within Kabbalah. Im not sure if its mentioned in the Zohar, or if it comes later, with the more elabortated Lurianic Kabbalah.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by cronos_qc


I don't know if kabbalah is having more elements from Greek mysticism than from other mysticism. (Surely not from Indians, but from egyptians). Or that the books of John is mostly using greek symbolism? But they are some astrological symbols used in the books of John, I'm not sure astrology is coming from the greeks.

I know Scholem discusses the Sefir Yetzirah, and of course it would hard for any Jewish mystic not to have been influenced by earlier Jewish mysticism, but IIUC the key ideas of Kabbalah, the notion of a hidden Torah, of the ten sefirot, etc are NOT found in SY or other earlier Jewish mystical works. Its not simple finding their roots, and I think an eastern root - persia via the Zorostrian style heresies that reached western europe in the form of Catharism - is not far fetched. Im not sure about the relation of THOSE ideas to Hindu civilization.

[lord of the mark]

this is from wiki on Zorostrianism (considered a possible origin of the Bogomil heresy which led to Catharism)

take it for what its worth, but interesting in the current context.


"Zoroastrianism is uniquely important in the history of religion because of its possible formative links to both Western Abrahamic and Eastern dharmic religious traditions.

Some scholars (Boyce, 1987; Black and Rowley, 1987; Duchesne-Guillemin, 1988) believe that large portions of the eschatology, angelology, and demonology (see Asmodai) of Judaism, a key influence on Christianity and Islam, originated in Zoroastrianism, and were transferred to Judaism during the Babylonian captivity (apparently 100 years before the emergence of monotheistic Zoroastrianism) and the Persian era, despite the numerous structural differences in the belief systems, crucial to the faiths, as in the issue over whether the evil spirit is a product of the good spirit.

Some also believe monotheism to have been a Zoroastrian influence, as Deutero-Isaiah supposedly makes a first monotheistic declaration (Isaiah 45:5-7) during the reign of the Persian Kings, that corresponds to his declaration that Jews were to obey Cyrus.


The Cyrus Cylinder, sometimes described as the "first charter of human rights"According to Mary Boyce "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed credal religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly or indirectly, than any other single faith... some of its leading doctrines were adopted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam". (Boyce, 1979, pg 1) Zoroastrianism has been proposed as the source of some of the most important post-Torah aspects of Judaic religious thinking, which emerged after the Babylonian captivity, from which Jews were liberated by Cyrus the Great.

This is also a view put forward by King and Moore, who wrote in The Gnostics and Their Remains that

it was from this very creed of Zoroaster that the Jews derived all the angelology of their religion... the belief in a future state; of rewards and punishments, ... the soul's immortality, and the Last Judgment - all of them essential parts of the Zoroastrian scheme. (King, 1887)
Many traits of this ancient religion can be traced back to the culture and beliefs of the proto-Indo-Iranian period, and Zoroastrianism consequently shares some elements with the Vedic faiths that also have their origins in that era. In fact, in many ways, although Zoroastrianism presents a similar philosophy as the Vedic faiths, it tends to present an "alternate viewpoint" that seems influenced primarily by a difference in perception. However, Zoroastrianism was also strongly affected by the later culture of the Iranian Heroic Age (1500 BC onwards), an influence that the Indic religions were not subject to. Nonetheless, scholars have used evidence from the texts of both religious systems to reconstruct the earlier stage of proto-Indo-Iranian beliefs and culture. This has also formed attempts to characterise the even earlier Proto-Indo-European religion, and so determine the process by which Dyeus became Jupiter, Sabazios, Zeus, and Tyr."

[aneeshm]

Zoorastrianism and Hinduism are sister religions, or heresies of each other. The Persians worship the beings in their Avesta called the Ahuras, and the evil beings are daevas, whereas in India, the Devas the the good guys and the Asuras are the bad ones (though this is a later development in both - earlier, both India and Persia regarded both Asuras and Devas as simply different classes of Gods).

Quoting the Wiki:

The term asura is linguistically related to the ahuras of Zoroastrianism, but with an inverted morality. Thus, while in Vedic religion the asuras are demonic, in Zoroastrianism, the ahuras are benign. This inversion also applies to the other class of immortals: where the Vedic devas are benevolent, the Zoroastrian daevas are malevolent.

The first of Gatha, which like all of Zoroaster's verses reflects a nomadic herdsman society, excoriates the devotees of the daevas for their benign treatment of cows, while the ahuras make efforts to kill/eat the cattle for scarifice. Unlike in Vedic ritual, the asuras and devas are not portrayed as fighting with one another over the offerings, but rather the Zoroastrian daevas are seen as a disruption of the worship.

So anything which is related to Persia is by necessity linked to India.

It is a testament to the tolerance of Hinduism that the Parsees, whose religion was as diametrically opposed to Hinduism as Satanism is to Christianity (I don't know much about Satanism, I'm just guessing), found refuge in India when they were driven out of their homeland many centuries ago, and are now dying out only because of their unwillingness to marry anyone outside their community.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by aneeshm
It is a testament to the tolerance of Hinduism that the Parsees, whose religion was as diametrically opposed to Hinduism as Satanism is to Christianity (I don't know much about Satanism, I'm just guessing), found refuge in India when they were driven out of their homeland many centuries ago, and are now dying out only because of their unwillingness to marry anyone outside their community.

BTW, as Im sure youre aware, perhaps the most famous Mumbai Parsee, at least in the West, is Zubin Mehta, who, among other musical achievements, is (or was) music director of the Israel Philharmonic.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
BTW, as Im sure youre aware, perhaps the most famous Mumbai Parsee, at least in the West, is Zubin Mehta

Either him, or Freddy Mercury

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


BTW, as Im sure youre aware, perhaps the most famous Mumbai Parsee, at least in the West, is Zubin Mehta, who, among other musical achievements, is (or was) music director of the Israel Philharmonic.

There are many prominent Parsees in India (they're probably the richest community in the country).

Soli Sorabjee - one of India's greatest jurists.
The Tata family - a national icon.
The Godrej family - another national icon.
Nanabhoy Palkhivala - another jurist, who defended the constitution when it was under grave threat.
Freddie Mercury - quite famous in the West.
Boman Irani - an actor (and a good one, at that).
Sam Manekshaw - Chief of Staff of the Indian Army, under whom we won a spectacular victory against Pakistan in the 1971 war.

There are many more, these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by aneeshm


There are many prominent Parsees in India (they're probably the richest community in the country).

Soli Sorabjee - one of India's greatest jurists.
The Tata family - a national icon.
The Godrej family - another national icon.
Nanabhoy Palkhivala - another jurist, who defended the constitution when it was under grave threat.
Freddie Mercury - quite famous in the West.
Boman Irani - an actor (and a good one, at that).
Sam Manekshaw - Chief of Staff of the Indian Army, under whom we won a spectacular victory against Pakistan in the 1971 war.

There are many more, these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Ive heard of the Tatas, had no idea they were Parsees.

Im sorry, i dont know who Freddy Mercury is.

[CrONoS]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Ive heard of the Tatas, had no idea they were Parsees.

Im sorry, i dont know who Freddy Mercury is.

He was the lead singer of an English rock band named Queen!

[LordShiva]

* The 1999 Millennium Poll, in which six hundred thousand Britons participated, he was voted into the number 14 and 15 spots as a popular musician and songwriter, respectively.[6]
* Ranked at No. 58 in the 2002 list of "100 Greatest Britons", sponsored by the BBC and voted for by the public.
* Two of Mercury's songs, "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "We Are The Champions" have each been claimed, in separate polls, as the world's favourite song. Most recently, an Ericsson poll of six hundred thousand people in sixty-six different countries found "We Are The Champions" to be the world's most popular tune.[29] This contradicts another major poll by Guinness World, which had previously found "Bohemian Rhapsody" to be the world's most popular song of the past 50 years.[30]
* The online music community at DigitalDreamDoor has consistently placed him at the number one position on a list of the 100 greatest rock vocalists.[31]
* In a list of the greatest English language singers of the 20th century, compiled by BBC Radio, he was the highest-ranked hard rock vocalist, having been voted at the tenth spot.[5] He also came in second in MTV's list of the 22 greatest singers of the past 25 years.[8]
* In 2006, Time Asia magazine voted Mercury as one of the most influential Asians in the past 60 years.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury

[lord of the mark]

well ive heard "We are the champions" many, many times.

Ive also heard Mehta conduct the Israel Phil.


I'll have to prefer Mehta, but I guess I was wrong about whos most famous.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by aneeshm
It is a testament to the tolerance of Hinduism that the Parsees, whose religion was as diametrically opposed to Hinduism as Satanism is to Christianity (I don't know much about Satanism, I'm just guessing), found refuge in India when they were driven out of their homeland many centuries ago, and are now dying out only because of their unwillingness to marry anyone outside their community.

Umm, Satanism is one of two things. Either people playing a game of silly buggers, and really having nothing to do with Christianity at all (except to thumb their noses at it).

Or the beleif in a reality that is based off of Christianity, but choosing evil and darkness instead.

I would really be surprised if Parsees were like the second, as I didn't think that Hinduism had anything similiar to Satan in their system.

Jon Miller

[Elok]

Freddy Mercury was the lead singer of the rock band Queen, who died of AIDS c.1990. Do you recognize any or all of the following words?

-"We will rock you"
-"We are the champions"
-"Who wants to live forever?" or any other music associated with "Highlander"
-"I see a little silhouetto of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango? Thunderbolt and lightning, very very frightening me. Galileo, Galileo, Galileo figaro, magnifico! Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh! Mammamia, mammamia, mammamia let me go! Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me," etc.

If so, you've encountered Freddy Mercury. Now, back to the OP: This guy is just applying his religious attitudes to Christian doctrine, stripping away most of what makes it unique in the process. For example, the bit I cited about the Gnostic view of the Crucifixion (or was it some other heresy? I forget); he does not accept that anything divine can die, therefore Christ did not die. But one of the central points of the Christian faith is that Christ took on mortal flesh, and everything that comes with it except for sin, in order to reconcile God and Man.

We Orthodox have a saying: "Christ could not have saved anything that he did not assume himself." And we tend to take a broader view of Christ's mission. Other sects of Christianity place even more emphasis on the Passion, believing that it was THE single thing which redeemed humanity. So what this Swami offers is not a Hindu view of Christianity so much as a revised, Hindu-acceptable version of Christianity he can integrate into his vision of religious syncretism. Sort of like the Muslims think Christianity is essentially correct, except Christ was just a prophet and the Trinity is blasphemous.

I'm too lazy to dig it up at the moment, but Jack Chick made a pamphlet explaining why Hinduism is incorrect from his (cough) "Christian" perspective. I believe that particular tract was called "The Traitor," and I remember it fondly as the first Chick tract I was ever exposed to.... Anyway, it raises points almost as valid as this Swami's, which is sad.