New EU members

[VetLegion]

Herreson is exactly right. Poles are going to be Brits with strange surnames in a generation. Pakistanis will still be marrying their cousins and plotting blowing up Big Ben in a generation. I'd worry about the latter more.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Heresson
my point exactly. How can You lost something You don't have anymore?

I think You mean: turn back time, because, as You say yourself, England is hardly England anymore

No, England is still English. Just London isn't. People are worried about the rest of it.

Originally posted by Heresson
You introduced dumb immigration laws and failed to create true integration politics.

Exactly. That's the problem.

Originally posted by Heresson
Dear, immigration from central and eastern Europe is, actually, chance for You to re-britanise London and other cities. I tell You, after 2 generations Poles (or Czechs or whoever) shall be more british than Britain, while it is hard to make a British out of a Pakistani f.e., also because while Pakistanis etc may have issues with Britain, with the West etc, Poles are actually enthusiastic about the West and about Britain, God knows why, actually.
Poles are present in bigger number in Britain for over 150 years. And I don't think they were ever a big trouble, while they contributed to british culture. Who knows in Britain that Joseph Conrad was actually polish?

I completely agree. That's a very good point. However much of Britain wouldn't agree yet. A pity. Also, you're presuming people think about things after two generations. As Keynes said, in the long run, we are all dead.

I'm arguing a bit of devil's advocate here. While most britons disagree with immigration for social and cultural reasons, I'm only against it for economic and crime reasons. The economic bit being overcrowding, unemployment and the burden on the taxpayer, and the crime bit due to unemployment.

[Colonâ„¢]

We shouldn't be allowing any Balkanites.

[Datajack Franit]

Heresson is today's hero

[Impaler[WrG]]

Why are Europeans so pesimistic, your continent is doing very very well, I think your rate of real media Per Capita GDP growth is way up their and your "dull" leadership is envyable from this side of the Atlantic. I always say good goverment is 90% what you DONT do. Seriosly do most of you forsee some kind of fall/collapse in the future for Europe? It happening here in the US, do you see yourselves having a similar decline now or in the future?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Seriosly do most of you forsee some kind of fall/collapse in the future for Europe? It happening here in the US, do you see yourselves having a similar decline now or in the future?

The common conception is that we'll be eaten alive by China and India.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Well Americans feel them same way except in the present tense, Europe on the other hand hand is likly to be more insulated from their effects due to purchasing habits. Americans will buy anything as long as its cheap were quite strongly adicted to their exports already, much less so Europe which both makes and buys higher quality goods with its high skill labor force.

[Datajack Franit]

For what I can tell, Europeans are extremely pessimistic toward the future, as Spiffor said, there's a common conception of India and China eating us alive, by destroying our economies with their unbeatable low-wages exports and their huge infrastructure development, while the EU Government is actually busy setting parameters for the diameter of peas and the classification of cheese and wine brands.

Another big issue is increasing growth of influence of radical political parties, let those be right-wing nationalists or left-wing extremists. These parties are currently forcing typical European Christian-Democrat "moderates" to form government coalitions with them, as they increased from an average 3% of the 1990's to the 4-9% of nowadays. Both parties receive votes for a common fear of Islam. Right-wing parties actually are asking for tighter immigration laws and a "take it or leave it" approach to radical Muslim immigrants or second-generation citizens, while left-wing parties are blaming Usa and Israel actions for the current world situation, asking for an increased tolerance to immigrants and a withdraw from peacekeeping/occupation of Iraq and other countries (Lebanon for example) unless the UN steps in.

I cannot tell who is right so far, but there's a big problem of identity in several European countries so far. Christianity has disappeared from our lives, leaving an empty hole that is filled with either consumerism, atheism, or discovering a new way of life that often ends up in either radical Christianity or a conversion to another religion. (Islam, again, is an increasing choice)

For what I can tell about Italy, crime rates are sky-rocketing in most parts of the country and, sorry for appearing racist, but a large amount of crimes are committed by illegal immigrants that arrived within the last 10-15 years, didn't find a job and are stuck in between: they cannot go back home, but cannot stay as well.

Political parties are currently fighting each other for either blaming the immigrants for not integrating themselves in the society, or blaming the common person for being racist and alienating these immigrants.

The result of this political, social and economic climate is that people no longer have children. Italy, Spain, Greece and Germany are way below the 2.1 child per woman fertility rate. Any rate below 2.1 means the overall population is decreasing. This means those unborn babies have to come from somewhere, making the "no immigrant" option impossible. And, of course, if a European Christian woman is having 1 single child, while a Muslim woman is having 3 or more, Europe will eventually end up having a large Muslim minority within 2030. Scientists are predicting a Muslim Europe within 2100, a peaceful takeover. What kind of Islamic societies future Europe will host, nobody knows.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Well Datajack Franit you must admit the posibility of a European Nazi-style final solution to the problem of the large muslim minority (somwhere around 2040 coupled with French nukes obliterating much of the middle east).

The Right seemes to be on a roll, while the left is just moving more to the center.

Pessimism
Euro-Nazis

Robots replacing Europeans

[_BuRjaCi_]

An after-thought; why can't we just clone? If the family is incapable of providing new citizens why can't the state take charge?

[Sandman]

Any rate below 2.1 means the overall population is decreasing.

That is untrue, like everything else you've posted. A society with advancing life expectancy can continue to have a growing population even with a low birth rate.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
You have a point about unemployment. It sucks to be an English plumber with so many Polish competition.

Polish plumbers rock.

English plumbers had the country over a barrel with poor, overpriced and slow service.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
The common conception is that we'll be eaten alive by China and India.

This is certainly the opinion of Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone. He wants to kill one or both of the British and French Grand Prix as soon as possible, and phase out European races, moving the whole circus to Asia. The reason? He predicts that Europe will be a 'third world economy' within ten years.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Heresson
Also, it's not like the bad son coming home and taking use of his brother's effects of work - it's because of your - british, french appeasement politics, and egocentrical isolationism when it comes to America, and later selling eastern Europe to USSR that eastern Europe is in its current state.

I think the old appeasement of Germany plus capitulation to the USSR argument is overblown. Britain was in no position to militarily oppose Nazi Germany's early expansion, especially with imperial overstretch. It may have needed to have been fascist or communist itself to have been strong enough to compete with Germany duing the so-called 'appeasement' years.

Nor were the Western allies in a realistic position to deny the USSR the gains it had made after repulsing the Nazi's attack. The USA was still at war with Japan, Britain has lost its empire and would remain broken and exhausted for nearly another twenty years, and was never very strong anyway. It only ever held the old empire together by bluff.

[Datajack Franit]

Originally posted by Sandman


That is untrue, like everything else you've posted. A society with advancing life expectancy can continue to have a growing population even with a low birth rate.

Like everything I´ve posted, write something better by yourself.

About the declining birth rate not having an impact to the overall population size, this alone explains you are completely clueless to what you´re talking about. But you see, a graph for you:


Japan is the only Western country that has virtually no immigration (Japanese are very nationalistic and migrating to Japan is extremely difficult)



And here, what will happen within the next years in that country





I am sure there will be absolutely no problems when half of Japan´s population will be over 50 years old, with virtually a whole generation of youngsters working in order to pay their grandparents´pensions