New EU members

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Heresson
since when? Well, perhaps since the last elections, but even now, our gouverment actually sees Europe as an union based on a common culture (based on christianity), unlike f.e. the French

That's my one fear of Poland. You're all such crazy worshippers of the Pope, making up for lost time it would seem. I would really like to keep religion out of things completely...

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
The most visible impact of cheap Polish labour is that labour-intensive manufacturing relocates there, pushing Sweden up the value ladder, in accordance with long-standing socdem policy.

Most countries have worse social systems than Sweden but produce the same kind of stuff. The UK is the extreme example here.
Also what will happen in a few decades when Poland has also moved up the value ladder to compete with you, but still doesn't have the same social laws as you?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Drogue
Yes. However from a Western-European perspective, it's still bad for us. Free trade does equalise somewhat, but my bet is free trade has more efficiency benefit and less negative effects for the richer countries than the rights to work anywhere.

Has economic research been done on the effects of migration? wasn't covered in economics classes.
Anyway, I guess one big effect of immigration is that when you lose your job, you have someone concrete to blame, which is not the case with the abstract idea of free trade.

[VetLegion]

Has economic research been done on the effects of migration?

Yes. Lots and lots of it.

Free trade is something, at least at the start, more profitable for the more developed countries.

Nope, not really.

[Solly]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


That's my one fear of Poland. You're all such crazy worshippers of the Pope, making up for lost time it would seem. I would really like to keep religion out of things completely...

Says the nearly-Christian

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Doddler


Says the nearly-Christian

And when was this? The only thing I can remember was going to a Christian prayer group at school for the coffee and biscuits

[Ecthy]

And not even for the girls? Shame on you

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Ecthy
And not even for the girls? Shame on you

I went to an all-male school...

[Dinner]

The extra labor from immagrants would actually help western Europe a lot. It would solve the population decrease problem, make it easier for companies to find the best workers (and thus more likely to stay put or for foreign companies to move in), increase consumption in their new countries (more economic growth), and generally contribute tax money. Sure, low skilled workers will face increased competition but that really isn't a bad thing as long as the government provides educational opportunities so people can climb the economic ladder. In the end every consumer pays lower prices for everything as labor costs decrease. That's a very good thing which really does help economic growth add up to real growth instead of just getting eatten up by inflation.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Heresson
Perhaps it's the case of Britain, but not Germany and other countries; well, it's not Eastern Europe's fault Britain can not take advantage of its opportunities

It's not, but it does mean we shouldn't support it if it's bad for us. And Germany doesn't either - it's not about opportunities, it's about prices. Poland has far lower prices than the UK and Germany, so we can't really export much as Poland can't pay the prices for our good. It's efficient, but it doesn't make it good for us. Having said that, I think free trade is beneficial overall and would be happy with that. What I'm not happy with is the emigration and immigration part.

Originally posted by Heresson
I agree with You - I believe western Europe should stop playing dumb & virtuous, and support its own population growth. Until then, however, You have no choice. You do not have a policy supporting it, and from the time of implementing it to the results one generation at least will have to pass. Yet, the choice of some companies is to fill their factories in Britain with immigrants or to move the factory outside Britain

Which is silly. We do have policies - the Taylor Report. We raise the retirement age, people accept that they need to save more, and we keep the state pension flat. Furthermore, we switch to an at least part-funded pension system. All we need to do is keep it so that people work for the same proportion of their life, or have the money saved to work less in later life.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Has economic research been done on the effects of migration?

As said, lots.

Originally posted by Maniac
Anyway, I guess one big effect of immigration is that when you lose your job, you have someone concrete to blame, which is not the case with the abstract idea of free trade.

True, though I don't really think that's the issue, so much. More that immigration brings other issues - in the UK it isn't about stealing our jobs that people care about so much. It's part crime, part a desire to keep some traditions as they are, and part xenophobia.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The extra labor from immagrants would actually help western Europe a lot. It would solve the population decrease problem,

It wouldn't. It would aid it in the short term, and completely wreck it in the longer term, as I've already said. We need stable population growth and a stable worker/non-worker ratio. It would aid the latter while wrecking the former.

Originally posted by Oerdin
make it easier for companies to find the best workers (and thus more likely to stay put or for foreign companies to move in)

How so?

Originally posted by Oerdin
generally contribute tax money.

Less that they use. Unemployment among immigrants is high and especially among skilled jobs. Basically it means very little tax comes from new immigrants. It would increase consumption, but not by that much.

Immigration is good, economically, in the short term. But that misses two points: the long term problems of high population growth; and the non-economic issues which are very important here. The latter is very different to the US, as the US firstly has a culture based on immigration, and a much more economic outlook. Americans worry about losing their job to an immigrant. People in the UK worry about losing their traditions and issues of crime.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Drogue

As said, lots.


True, though I don't really think that's the issue, so much. More that immigration brings other issues - in the UK it isn't about stealing our jobs that people care about so much. It's part crime, part a desire to keep some traditions as they are, and part xenophobia.

what traditions are post-christian post-british British going to lose due to polish immigration?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Heresson
what traditions are post-christian post-british British going to lose due to polish immigration?

Not Polish specifically, but in general. Have you been to London? It's not English anymore. Many shops don't have signs in English, because all the locals speak another language. It's more about havign something in common than specific traditions - people speaking the same language, having the same background, seeing things in the same way. I'm not saying it's good, but many people prefer things to stay as they are. That when someone goes to the shop the other person speaks English, makes small talk about the weather, etc. There's a general feeling that being British is starting to mean very little. This is why the BNP win local council seats and UKIP win euro-elections: they want to keep Britain as it is.

I don't agree with most of it, but they are closer to the reasons much of Britain is against immigration, rather than fear of losing jobs solely.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Drogue

Not Polish specifically, but in general. Have you been to London? It's not English anymore.

my point exactly. How can You lost something You don't have anymore?

Many shops don't have signs in English, because all the locals speak another language. It's more about havign something in common than specific traditions - people speaking the same language, having the same background, seeing things in the same way. I'm not saying it's good, but many people prefer things to stay as they are.

I think You mean: turn back time, because, as You say yourself, England is hardly England anymore

That when someone goes to the shop the other person speaks English, makes small talk about the weather, etc. There's a general feeling that being British is starting to mean very little.

Well, no-one else to blame but yourself, not even immigrants, and especially european ones.
First of all, You are the ones who are abandoning your traditions and identity, often with disgust. Such is the case of christianity, of proud of your history and your country etc.
You introduced dumb immigration laws and failed to create true integration politics.

This is why the BNP win local council seats and UKIP win euro-elections: they want to keep Britain as it is.

I don't agree with most of it, but they are closer to the reasons much of Britain is against immigration, rather than fear of losing jobs solely.

Dear, immigration from central and eastern Europe is, actually, chance for You to re-britanise London and other cities. I tell You, after 2 generations Poles (or Czechs or whoever) shall be more british than Britain, while it is hard to make a British out of a Pakistani f.e., also because while Pakistanis etc may have issues with Britain, with the West etc, Poles are actually enthusiastic about the West and about Britain, God knows why, actually.
Poles are present in bigger number in Britain for over 150 years. And I don't think they were ever a big trouble, while they contributed to british culture. Who knows in Britain that Joseph Conrad was actually polish?