Will Bush be impeached??

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ned
Iran Contra was also such a witch hunt. It's whole purpose was to get Reagan. They gave North immunity, for gods sake. But it was North who was the renegade, not Reagan.

You. Can't. Be. Serious.

Let's review Iran-Contra, we? The Reagan administration:

1) Sold arms to the Ayatollah's government in Iran, a government that had held our own people hostage just a few years before and a country with whom we had no diplomatic relations, and

2) Gave the money made from arms sales to the "Contras" in Nicaragua -- best described (as they were by Republican Senator Lowell Weiker) as "our terrorists" -- in specific and deliberate violation of US law.

Arms sales. Clandestine government financing of an armed insurgency in Latin America. Abrogation of US Law. Do you really think North was doing that all by himself? Do you really thing he could have? There's no way -- which is why the probe also caught NSC director Poindexter and NSA McFarlane (who tried to commit suicide in the middle of it all) and why other players (including Defense Sec Cap Weinberger) were pardoned by Bush once he became president. Bush himself, it's generally thought, also knew what was going on -- very likely, given that he used to be head of the CIA.

So you've got an administration negotiating with some terrorists while funding others, all in open defiance of US law, and the scandal reaches at least as far as the Secretary of Defense, the president's National Security Advisor, and the Vice President. And you call the inquiry a witchhunt?

That's a stretch even for the Nediverse, isn't it?

edit: One last point, re Reagan. Either he knew, or he didn't. If he knew, a Congressional probe into his culpability was totally appropriate. If he didn't know, a Congressional inquiry into why the President remained ignorant while his own appointed advisors ran amok was also completely appropriate. Either way, you really need to get dictionary and look up "witchhunt."

[Ned]

Rufus, of course Reagan knew about the arms shipment to Iran in order to get US hostages released. That is NOT why Reagan ordered an investigation of his own administration. It was the use of the arms money to fund the Contras that was the issue, and whether that violated US law.

Ollie North testified that it was he who decided to give the money to the Contras.

[Ned]

Rufus, your post is almost hilarious in how it conflates the Iran piece with the Contra piece. The only real link between the two was the money Ollie had after the Iran transaction was done.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ned
Rufus, your post is almost hilarious in how it conflates the Iran piece with the Contra piece. The only real link between the two was the money Ollie had after the Iran transaction was done.

"The only real link..." Gosh, Ned, I suppose you're right: the only real link between the two is that the WHOLE F*CKING POINT of illegally selling arms to the Iranians was so that the recipients of the money could finance the illegal insurgency in Latin America. That's not conflation; it's what the participants themselves admitted. I'm at a loss as to what you find hilarious -- but then, I'm generally at a loss to explain how you misinterpret the obvious.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

And let me also put on my Executie Branch Officer hat and say this: if I were to go renegade and abuse my power (by, say, selling access to US visas), get caught, and swear that I was acting alone, the very first thing investigators would do was inquire into who else knew, and inquire especially into (to use the Watergate formulation) what the Ambassador knew and when she knew it. That's how investigations work.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


"The only real link..." Gosh, Ned, I suppose you're right: the only real link between the two is that the WHOLE F*CKING POINT of illegally selling arms to the Iranians was so that the recipients of the money could finance the illegal insurgency in Latin America. That's not conflation; it's what the participants themselves admitted. I'm at a loss as to what you find hilarious -- but then, I'm generally at a loss to explain how you misinterpret the obvious.

I'm sorry, Rufus, but no one admitted any such thing(s).

And, where did you get the idea that one of the purposes for selling arms to Iran was to fund the Contras? Ollie testified that he decided to send the money to the Contras himself after the deal was done and he had the cash.

[Ned]

The Iran Contra fishing expedition was an effort to get Reagan, pure and simple. They granted immunity to North, the only true malefactor in the whole affair, just like they earlier had granted Dean immunity when it turned out that it was Dean himself who was behind the burglary and the coverup.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ned
North, the only true malefactor in the whole affair

So Poindexter's admissions?

McFarlane's guilt-ridden suicide attempt?

Bush's pardon of Weinberger?

You're spouting nonsense, Ned. As usual.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Sorry. On reflection, I didn't mean "nonsense." That's way, way too generous.

The Tower Commission found that Poindexter authorized the whole deal and Weinberger was also culpable, and suggested limited culpability on the part of Bush. The Walsh Commission also showed that Ed Meese became involved once the scheme had begun, but almost a year before it was exposed. Poindexter was later convicted on 3 felony counts, and Weinberger was indicted for perjury and escaped trial only because Bush pardoned him.

So the head of the NSA, the Defense Secretary, and the Attorney General all were involved, but North was the only "malefactor" and inquiring into the president's role was a witchhunt?

Do you ever know what you're talking about, Ned?

[Berzerker]

The problem with the special prosecutor under Clinton is that Starr went way, way off the reservation and way beyond his mandate. Once he couldn't find anything that would stick on Whitewater (his original mandate), he just began a free-form investigation into all things Clinton until Monica finally showed up

Paula Jones sued Bill Clinton for sexual harassment, thats what led to his lying and finally Monica. You could say Starr led to that indirectly but it really goes back to the "Bimbo Alert" problem Clinton had when he ran for Prez. Starr wasn't really looking into his sexual adventures but Repubs were doing their own investigating and either recruited Jones or at least covered her legal fees to pursue the matter.

The Iran Contra fishing expedition was an effort to get Reagan, pure and simple. They granted immunity to North, the only true malefactor in the whole affair, just like they earlier had granted Dean immunity when it turned out that it was Dean himself who was behind the burglary and the coverup.

What did Dean get immunity for? They must have had him on something, right?

[Berzerker]

As BC said, Blix only came to his own conclusion based on very limited information. As you know, Bush never allowed him to complete the inspections.

The inspections were effectively over around '98 when Clinton told the teams to leave Iraq in preparation for a significant bombing campaign. I dont know if they went back but we do know what they destroyed and we have a good idea of what Saddam had (we have the receipts) and according to Scott Ritter, the UN inspections destroyed > 95% of his estimated stockpiles (the "loose change" are these old artillery shells from the Iran war we find occasionally). By that time the CIA had used the inspections to gather intel on Saddam for assassination attempts/coups and the Iraqis knew it, so they increasingly restricted inspections of sites sensitive to Saddam's security.

Bush claimed Saddam had reconstituted WMD but the only evidence we were given was a visit by Iraqs former nuke scientist to Niger allegedly for yellowcake. Niger (and Joe Wilson) said Iraq did not buy yellowcake from Niger, notice how Bush cited foreign intelligence and said Saddam "sought" yellowcake? Thats language meant to deceive, not convey truth - the Bu****s lied.

As I said before, even if myriad ulterior motives of Bush et. al were more important to them than WMD, that doesn't mean they didn't believe the WMD existed. And if they believed they existed, then their claims were - by definition - not lies.

Of course they were lies, they did not present us with a balanced assessment of the "threat" posed by Saddam. Everything was either slanted or fabricated to create a threat worthy of sneak attacking another country. Almost at the same time Bush is telling us aluminum tubes can be used for enriching uranium the energy dept top people were saying those tubes could not be used to enrich uranium. Did Bush correct himself? Nope... Does Bush ever correct himself? Nope... Does Cheney? :lol He still claims Atta "might" have met with Iraqi intel in Prague.

My God !!! Please dont ask for lies the Bu****s have told, ask what truthes they've told, it'll save us alot of time

[azzaman333]

Bush is a monkey, who likes to eat peaches.

[chequita guevara]

Bush has broken the law. He had admitted to breaking the law. He has stated he intends to continue to break the law. Anyone else would be thrown in jail for this kind of behavior, but to apply the same laws to Bush is politically stupid?

HE'S BREAKING THE LAW!

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bush has broken the law. He had admitted to breaking the law. He has stated he intends to continue to break the law. Anyone else would be thrown in jail for this kind of behavior, but to apply the same laws to Bush is politically stupid?

HE'S BREAKING THE LAW!

And that law is . . ???

[DinoDoc]

Doing something che doesn't like.