Finland - nation of trade offs

[Pekka]

First of all, Finland is, for some parts, anti-American. It's not anti-American as many big flamers are, but still, in its core, it is, in a peaceful way. So, if you are an American, you should consider us as your friends and allies, trusted ones, but don't consider to be the #1 in here.

Then again, no one should consider themselves #1 in here. You are all crap to most of us. Most people would not like to see Finland in NATO, most people would not even like EU, though this one is a bit more close than the NATO thing.

While bending over to Putin, the nation is still one of the most russophobic in the world, if not the most. Yet, it sees it is important to do business and keep close relations.

It's doesn't have so much to do with capitalism vs socialism, it's got more to do with perceptions of what ever is happening currently, and even more so it has to do with the natural hatred for any kind of authorities. We don't like to bend over to no one in personal lives, cops are crap, but then again we trust them a lot.

Finland, in its own way, is one of the most skilled players in the world, yet it is one of the most unimportant players in it. It plays to all ends, almost flawless, and sees itself as a country and alliance of its own. At most, we might see ourselves in some kind of alliance with the Nordic countries, or Scandinavia, but that's it.

As a libertarian, it is very difficult, ideologically, to appreciate the general atmosphere of Finland. Extremely difficult, I almost hate it so much I get sick to my stomach. Yet, it's difficult to hate it in general, with some of the most progressive things going on, that have been valued since the beginning of its time.

Next I'll explain some things, why a libertarian can not fit in here, but yet can live in here, but should know some things so not to kill themselves.

[Lorizael]

Important question about Finland: If I steal this essay and turn it in as an assignment in an International Politics course, what grade would I get?

[Pekka]

First off, there is absolutely no concern for individual rights and liberties. None what so ever. They are not even in the list of 'to do' or 'this is important'.

It has worked so far decently, because it was founded on certain ideals of democracy, and it has not been too badly abused, because people in general are pretty predictable in here. Hardcore with the protestant ethic, it is easy to control people in here. So now, that we are starting to have people who are challenging some of the ideals of the nation, what you see is instant classification to 'activists', which is attached to the thing with animal rights activists and other dirty hippies.

You rarely see a protest in here, you could live 20 years in here, in the capital, and not see a single protest. Maybe you read about one in the papers, that had 30 people attending, and 60 cops, ready in full riot gear, attack dogs, and identity check forced for anyone randomly, to be entered in a database.

This to me is quite awful practice. And it will be accepted by 90% of the population as 'controlling the activists'. But what kind of danger are they presenting to the nation, or the population? Freaking 0!! They are not even violent, don't mix it up with some of the heated protests in Europe. In here, it's like teenage kids, drinking beer (not even drunk), one throws a bottle at cops and that's the most violence you'll see. And yet, it was the most violent attack against the nation ever to be seen. Papers, sometimes even the parliament are going to discuss the situation.

Sense of reality totally gone, wasted, due to lack of experience.

I do not recognize the state's power over me in issues where I am not breaking any set laws. Period. I will not use violence to protect these rights, but I will not bend over either, and that doesn't make me an activist to be labeled with the rioting teenagers who are actually more peaceful than your regular night in bars.

So if my rights are really abused, what can I do? Well, how about nothing? There is no organization even, that handles cases like this, where they offer help or in severe cases, protection.

Why would you need protection from the state, since the state protects you? Right.... in a world where everything is black and white, this might be so, but let's not count on state alone.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Important question about Finland: If I steal this essay and turn it in as an assignment in an International Politics course, what grade would I get?

Your professor would just write "wtf lori?" on your report card.

[Apocalypse]

Santa lives in Lapland, yet there is no Santa.

[Pekka]

Lorizael, prolly 0, because I'm basing these statements on long experience, outside observing (since I do not belong to the left or right in here, I don't belong in the politics in here at all), plus what ever. if you want official politics, you should read a book or two, and ask why something was said in it, then we can give you perspective.


Anyway, as the democracy is still young, there is no regards for individual rights. For libertarian, this is very difficult to accept. What is even worse, there is no room for it as of now. There is only one battle that has been raging for the longest time and that is left vs right. And even that isn't really the battle of them, but left vs. left.

As long as we accept 'welfare state' and 'crade to grave' as the only possible solution to good standard of living, we are lost. Finland's purchasing power (for a citizen) is in the lowest ranks of EU, in the same level with Portugal, or otuside EU, Mexico.

What is even more worrying is the fact, that we do not have much ownership or personal capital. So the right wing is fighting this one, while the left wing is claiming its policies are working, and if you would do anything differently, the world will come to an end and the rich will eat the poor.

So there.

Even though I disagree with them BOTH even in this battle, you see, there is no room for, 'what about the rights of an individual'. It resemebles more sosialist dystopia, where if you attack the state, you attack the living standards of all people. In comparison if you'd attack the state in some other places, you'd be called unpatriotic.

So there is no room for anything, because teh state is better at deciding what is best for you, this is the general atmosphere, and it is accepted.

So what about the good things? Well, I do like the effort to push education high in the list of priorities. I think it's a great thing, one of the best in the whole world, so I can't really say a bad thing about it. The 'motto' of our Uni is pretty telling 'The gift of free people to free science'. Yes, they were built on voluntary force and money back in the days, and they are thriving today. That's the spirit I like. People chipping in, knowing they wouldn't get to study there anyway, but saw it as an important thing. It kind of worked well for the rest of us later on.

The general attitude in science is also great, we have managed to shut the mouths of fundies who have problems against discovering the nature. So in this field, it's progressive.

This means pretty good equality to me, which is important.

But make no mistake, if we were ever to face a situation like 9/11, we would be rewriting the laws so fast, that the US would seem like a super liberal country. We'd prolly lock ourselves up.

[Pekka]

Other stuff, like people are not really interested in politics. We are more interested in the Finnish Idols, or who is sleeping with who.

The only serious politics is done in the left wing IMO. It's kind of ironic, that since I have absolutely no representation in here, and if I woudl hold individual rights as #1 topic, the Green party is most likely closest to me, or at least has the best candidates. The Green party damn it, the party I hate almost as much as the SDP. The green party in here has also played with the idea of negative income tax, which would be so outside the set of tools we usually use, that damn, just throwing out the idea is extremely advanced, even though it might not work for us and never be adopted.

You even get some support for flat tax, as an idea. So that's definitely weird. And about individual rights, if I had one party protecting my rights as a citizen, I'd have to choose the green party. I still wouldn't vote them though, or join their ranks,. they disgust me!

But it gives you perspective, that any living libertarian might have to find some extra oxigine tanks, just to stay alive in here.

[Pekka]

What really frustrates me and sometimes makes me want to leave this country (besides horrible wheather) is the fact that everything is always about blue vs white collar. EVERYTHING.

If you ever attack any policy, you are either trying to 'hurt the poor' or whatever. So there is no room for real advancements. I think we should be catering to the middle class, since we are losing it. The poverty line is reality for increasing number of people, who are actually WORKING. That's just not good enough.

Make no mistake, we are not catering to the rich either. Or the poor. Or the middle class. We are only catering to the bureocracy of the state, which is really sad and kind the total opposite of my own beliefs, and since there is no room for the kind of thinking I would encourage, it's pretty frustrating.

You know, the kind of where you decide for yourself, where you are held responsible for your own actions as well, where you don't have to get a permission from the state to breathe and fill out 10 forms, have them declined by 1000 uneducated, eagerly pro-bureocracy clerks.

Not really my cup of tea. But then, you can always leave and there's nothing holding you. And once you go outside, you'll see a whole set of advancements in this area in many places, but then again, you start seeing draconian stuff in the things you like in here, like education. You are also likely to encounter chaotic corruption, which is almost non-existent in here. We do believe in WYSIWYG, so you don't have to interpret things and guess what is going to happen. Makes life so much easier.

But yeah, then the interesting bits.. so, it's pretty isolated in its own world, but then again it does play all ends, but only for its own gain. A great example is the Cold War. While Finland was definitely under SU's shoe, it still played to the West. Finns provided intelligence to U.S. nuclear interests during Cold War http://www.hs.fi/english/article/TV+.../1135223762860
But even though it played to the West, it also played to the East. SU was an important business partner in those years, lifting our economy. So it was not biting someones hand, it was shaking all hands.

Pretty interesting article. So, they played both ends. Some say that would be sneaky, but hey, you have to be if you want to make it and be small at the same time, and as a strategy, I applaud the way it was all handled.

[VetLegion]

Larry Thorne
Kimi Raikkonen
Randy Berliner

[Pekka]

Kimi is a ***** in my mind. Yeah, nothing against him personally, he is a great at what he does, however, I just don't give much respect to anyone who abuses their talent in such ways.. I mean to say, he has only few seasons in him, and after that he becomes too slow, because he just goes on all out boozing weekends. F1s is just too challenging to be killing your senses all the time like that.

Of course he is free to do what he wants, but I just don't like to see a talent go to waste like that. He could be better.

[Barnabas]

You live in a great welfare state

It is a shame you cant appreciate it



Individualism

Libertarians

Anarchy

Greed

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Your professor would just write "wtf lori?" on your report card.

[Pekka]

Brancy-Pride
Saddam

[VetLegion]

I have much respect for Finland because it... well, works. Brachy is overreacting but in reality only a handful of countries in the world really work. Since Finland is ~5.2 million people, it can probably be found that some regions in bigger countries, or states in federations work as well as Finland even though their "mother" countries do not. Maybe some US states, Oregon or something.

[Pekka]

Well, BP and the type of people he represents are the problem to all core stupidities, which is enforcing their own stupidity over others. He doesn't know Finland, he just thinks he does, he's an idiot, and probably has sex with animals.

He aptly brought GREED to this, I don't knwo what the **** that has to do with anything int hsi thread, so it's clear he is either trolling, or his parents are cousins and made him to this world.